To want to keep my UK passport if Scotland votes YES in the 2014 referendum?

[SittingBull1]

If the majority of people actually voting votes YES in the 2014 referendum, Scotland will leave the UK. As Scots living in Scotland, will my family and I lose our UK passports? Along with a very large number of NO voters, my family and I will want to retain our UK passports, and I'm sure that a huge percentage of the non-voters will also want to keep theirs. I think that the UK government should offer to allow Scots living in Scotland to retain their UK passports. Is that unreasonable?

The welsh assembly has already said they would vote against Scotland continuing to retain sterling as a currency so clearly they don't think it would be beneficial to them.

The eu throws up the quandary of the common fisheries policy which is hated within the fishing community including Peterhead which is Salmond's constituency.

Childcare sounds great but is an election promise so no guarantee on that.

The Pitcairn islands, oh bloody hell, you are taking the piss with that.

The point still stands, if you list countries by population size Scotland is roughly in the middle.

Ok, but what about the two points I made above in relation to the currency and the eu quandary?

Itsallgoingtobefine whats your point that you are trying to make with your last post? Are you actually trying to argue that Scotland isn't a small country?!

Its bad enough being told everything is wonderful and what to think all the time, but now its extending to making a small country bigger?!

Scotland is a tiny country, population-wise, when compared to other countries in Europe. The Netherlands is quite a small country, but it still has 3 1/2 times as more people than Scotland, at 16 million. Even tiny Belgium has double!

I'm not really buying into this "Scotland is the centre of the earth" policy! Some people need to get out a bit more...

However if you are going to mention tiny island states such as the Pitcairn Islands, then that brings into focus the issue of possible independence or at least devolution for Shetland, which shares none of the "tartan and haggis" culture of mainland Scotland and was part of Norway until , but does geographically have a large claim to the oil, and which was not part of Scotland until the 15th Century. In fact, evidence suggests that Shetland went into economic decline after being annexed to Scotland and Scotland and the Scots aren't so popular amongst many Shetlanders (including my only Scottish relatives).

Shetland, along with some other Scottish islands is looking for increased devolution from the Scottish government. Many of them do not consider themselves as Scottish.

Cross-posted Shenanigans. No doubt Itsallgoingtobefine will tell us we are mistaken, as are the Shetlanders, and in fact they are out campaigning for Holyrood (which is spoken in as derogatory terms as "Scotland" in some parts of Sheltand) as we speak.

Scotland is a tiny country, population-wise, when compared to other countries in Europe. The Netherlands is quite a small country, but it still has 3 1/2 times as more people than Scotland, at 16 million. Even tiny Belgium has double

Assuming you mean EU countries:
28 EU countries, 9 have populations lower than scotland.

lessmissabs, their mp is Alistair Carmichael i think that sums up their attitude to independence.
It should be noted that they hate the common fisheries policy so they would not want to loose any bargaining powers with the eu on that. This would almost certainly come up as we try to negotiate to get back into the eu.

The Scottish government is looking at devolving more power to the Islands
news.scotland.gov.uk/News/Islands-Conference-44a.aspx

they hate the common fisheries policy so they would not want to loose any bargaining powers with the eu on that

Yup, given the quantities of fish landings/fisheries under Scotland's control we get a pretty poor deal from the EU. But this is because Westminster negotiates on our behalf to get what is best for the UK as a whole.

As fishing is so important to Scotland when Scotland is in the EU it will be able to negotiate on its own behalf, and only need to worry about what is best for Scotland

itsallgoingtobefine unthread you mentioned that the eu would rather not lose our fisheries. I think it would be safe to assume that they will bargain hard on this in order to accept us back into the eu.

There is also an assumption that Shetland will want to stay with Scotland a country they do not associate as being part of.

Assuming you mean EU countries:28 EU countries, 9 have populations lower than Scotland

Ah yes. But we hear remarkably little about increasingly depopulated and recession hit Estonia, Lithuania and Latvia. And the Scandinavian countries are so inter-dependent on each other that they can really be seen as a block.

OTOH the UK as a whole has 67 million, France 80 million, Germany 80 million - Scotland is a tiny country, with a tiny population. I'm always reminded of that sketch in Father Ted, describing the difference in "big" and "far away". How many times does 5.3 million go into 67 million?

You really do make it up as you go along, don't you Itsallgoingtobefine.

You are putting me more off independence, if that was possible. I don't know if that's your aim, but you might want to adjust your way of discussion if your aim is to bend people to the Yes cause. At the moment, you simply give off the impression that you will say anything, no matter how inaccurate it is, to appeal to everyone. Unfortunately, it comes across as insincere and uninformed.

Oh and its usually a Scottish delegation who negotiate with the eu on the fisheries policy under the banner of a British government.

What if an independent Scotland became like Latvia (Edinburgh is equally popular for stag parties!)

www.newstatesman.com/2013/08/riga-ghost-town

Perhaps we should also be asking what will happen to the discredited Yes campaigners and SNP if there is a No vote. Which is after all what the polls are predicting.

Will they pretend it didn't happen? Or will there be calls for a third referendum? Or will they simply achieve their main goal anyway, of raising taxes in Scotland only to pay for their pet projects and to keep them and their friends in well paid jobs?

You really do make it up as you go along, don't you Itsallgoingtobefine

Eh? You said Overall though I think its easy to forget that Scotland is a relatively tiny country population wise

I showed that Scotland is roughly in the middle of countries population wise.

You said "Scotland is a tiny country, population-wise, when compared to other countries in Europe. The Netherlands is quite a small country, but it still has 3 1/2 times as more people than Scotland, at 16 million. Even tiny Belgium has double*

I pointed out that roughly a 3rd of EU countries have a smaller population than Scotland.

What have I made up?

Perhaps we should also be asking what will happen to the discredited Yes campaigners and SNP if there is a No vote. Which is after all what the polls are predicting

That is something I would really like to see. The Scottish government has set out in great detail what they believe a Yes vote would mean for Scotland.

I would really love to see Better Together produce a similar document. After all, its hard to know which way to vote without all the information.

Is the UK likely to leave the EU?
How does Westminster government intent to modify Scotland's block grant?

I showed that Scotland is roughly in the middle of countries population wise

No, its not. You are telling fibs. Work out the average in terms of population size. It is amongst the smallest, in population size terms. It does not fall in the middle, or anywhere near the middle. The middle would be around 30 million. ie 6 times higher than Scotland has.

And no, I don't think the campaign for the status quo should do the Yes campaign's work for them. They are not campaigning for a radical change, so why should they.

These little mind tricks you are attempting to play and fail are really very irritating. Is that what they would do in an independent Scotland?

So, the Yes campaigners like to bend the truth so much that 5 million becomes a medium sized country and basic arithmetical tools, such as working out an average, are ignored?

Sounds great. Have you ever tried reading Pravda?

I have never said average, I have said in the middle ie median. Which it is (worldwide not EU)
Why does it matter so much what the population of Scotland is? All that matters is that many countries of similar/lower populations do exist, and exist quite happily.

So thats the "too wee argument" covered by you, you have shown throughout this thread that you think we are "too stupid", now isn't it about time you brought up "too poor"?

And no, I don't think the campaign for the status quo should do the Yes campaign's work for them. They are not campaigning for a radical change, so why should they

But people need to remember that the "status quo" will change. There is a good chance the UK will leave the EU. There is a good chance that Scotland block grants will be reduced.

Voter shouldnt assume that a no vote equals no change.

Where do you get the idea that there is a 'good chance the UK will leave the EU' yes there is going to be a referendum but its stretching it a bit to say at this stage that the outcome is likely to be that we leave the UK.

Whichever way you look at it Scotland will be a small country and to pretend otherwise is nonsensical .

The problem as I see it is that the SNP are treating it as a general election , a yes vote is automatically a vote for the SNP , there doesn't seem to be any independent evaluation of what the future would be like with a non SNP government , surely it is possible to support independence but not support SNP policies .

To go back to an earlier question that was asked of me: yes I am happy paying a 50% rate (which is what the effective rate is after you add in NI contributions nice wee fudge that was introduced to reduce the headline rate while maintaining HRMC revenues ) - and I was happy paying even higher levels in the past.

If we want good public services (and I believe very strongly in the NHS and education for starters) then we have to be prepared to pay for them.

I agree that a 98% tax rate was excessive - but also think that a higher rate than 40% is acceptable. The part of your income that is taxed at a higher rate still leaves a massive amount of disposable income. But there again, I do have a naively altruistic streak that wonders just how much money people need to live on

I also have an old fashioned view of living within your means - make of that what you will . We've been able to survive the period of me being between roles and dh setting up the new business because we have excellent savings - which have been sorely squeezed 'cos of minuscule interest rates - and a tiny mortgage.

Looking forward to next year when we will have a decent income again, which includes paying higher rates of income tax again

I am still fizzing at Gordon Brown for wasting the boom years and not building up reserves which could have been used for infrastructure as a counter cyclical measure in the lean years (yes, I am a Keynesian).

But these are wider debates than whether or not Independence is the right decision for the Scots.

I might have imagined it, but isn't there further devolution already agreed, and so a reduction in the block grant in the near future is because the Scottish Parliament is going to be directly responsible for part of income tax?

Mind you the SNP are determined to ignore the powers they already have to make positive changes in Scotland, to the extent that they let the previous tax varying powers lapse. They have prevented councils from raising council tax while at the same time delivering bigger local government cuts than England and Wales.

It apparently cost £100,000 to rebrand the Scottish Executive, the Scottish Government.

and £125,000 to give Scottish Airports a new slogan... "Welcome to Scotland"

I do wonder if I read the whole of the white paper will I find what the costs are of setting up a Scottish HMRC, DWP, DVLA, BBC, Passport Office, Customs, Diplomatic service, Intelligence Agency and the like... not to mention the money being spent now on working on the case for independence and running the referendum. No doubt this will employ a lot of people, but it is a cost which could otherwise have been spent on things we don't already have.

Regards TV, I'm already pretty annoyed at some of the Scottish scheduling which has resulted in such ridiculous things as not being able to see a british wildlife programme where the episode was focused on the Scottish Highlands, because there was a Scottish made programme on - where the episode wasn't even talking about Scotland. I'd rather not lose any more programming because Mr. Salmond doesn't rate it as highly as Doctor Who or Eastenders. I'm not impressed for instance by the decisions made by STV over what not to buy from ITV. I reckon independence will be a boon for Murdoch and co.

If an independant Scotland would be more left wing than the rUK, why is the first (and only?) concrete plan to lower corporation tax which is a gift to multinationals and could cause a race to the bottom within the UK?