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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To want to keep my UK passport if Scotland votes YES in the 2014 referendum?

967 replies

SittingBull1 · 16/11/2013 19:50

If the majority of people actually voting votes YES in the 2014 referendum, Scotland will leave the UK. As Scots living in Scotland, will my family and I lose our UK passports? Along with a very large number of NO voters, my family and I will want to retain our UK passports, and I'm sure that a huge percentage of the non-voters will also want to keep theirs. I think that the UK government should offer to allow Scots living in Scotland to retain their UK passports. Is that unreasonable?

OP posts:
FannyFifer · 21/11/2013 20:04

Watch out though Caitlin17 will be complaining that talking about Welsh language is not relevant. Wink

LessMissAbs · 21/11/2013 20:32

What is it with the political intolerance in Scotland though? What I mean is, why do people so rudely criticise other's views if they don't fall into the left wing, pseudo-socialist pattern? Admitting to voting conservative, which is after all the current government of the UK, is pretty risky in Scotland. At the least you will be made to feel like a leper or that there is something wrong with you. Or you will be subjected to a barrage about Margaret Thatcher and the council tax. At worst you may be assaulted (I was once, by a man). What you won't get is a rational and tolerant discussion on politics.

I find such intolerance really discomforting and I really don't think I'd feel safe living in such a country.

I note that today there is a case involving age discrimination and failure to be considered for any posts in the new unitary Fire Board going through the courts involving a top former Fire Service officer in Scotland, and that his membership of Better Together is also part of the case involving discrimination, but only a minor part, because political discrimination isn't protected by law.

[note I'm not saying what way I vote here, but I'm playing devil's advocate]

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 21/11/2013 22:18

What is it with the political intolerance in Scotland though? What I mean is, why do people so rudely criticise other's views if they don't fall into the left wing, pseudo-socialist pattern? Admitting to voting conservative, which is after all the current government of the UK, is pretty risky in Scotland. At the least you will be made to feel like a leper or that there is something wrong with you. Or you will be subjected to a barrage about Margaret Thatcher and the council tax. At worst you may be assaulted (I was once, by a man). What you won't get is a rational and tolerant discussion on politics

Lots of rational tolerance shown by unionists on this thread (and not at all rudely critical, oh no)

"My guess is the same thing as the number of staunch pro-independence supporters who suck up to anyone remotely approaching sleb status"

"If independence means having to be patronised by none too bright MSPs who talk like they've come out of communist-placatory-nonsensespeakschool"

"A lot of the independence debate puts me in mind of what is described as the psychological condition of "groupthink""

" you need to go away and study a substantive subject, because you don't really understand the complexities of the topics you are trying to bamboozle people into believing your version of"

"Is this what they would do in an independent Scotland? "Advise" people to read nationalistic propaganda? Is that really the best you can do? Are you off your head?
You don't even understand basic concepts, such as sovereignty, statehood, international law fundamentals, EU treaty succession, which if you did, and could be bothered to find out, might inform you a little better.
You really need to stop trying to tell people who are better educated than you what to think. It doesn't work."

"You will be poorer but will have to lie and say you are richer, by giving shouty specific examples of "things which have improved". Otherwise you won't get jobs, or your fathers, mothers, sons, daughters, etc won't get jobs.
You will also be expected to constantly narrate how wonderful Scotland is, how wonderful it is to be Scottish and generally how eutopian life in Scotland is. If you don't, lots of former Cybernats will track you down and bore you to death by lecturing you in that special, half educated way they have without pausing for breath on the wonders of Scotland and Scottishness"

"I just have this impression in Scotland that there is a little bit too much like the former East Germany or the Soviet Union"

"It really is one of the most annoying pieces of clichéd propaganda I have ever seen - it is clearly aimed at the lowest common denominator, since the "flashcard" imagery is surely going to alienate anyone with much power to think for themselves."

" I honestly think that any person with remotely any intelligence, or a brain to think for themselves with, would be really put off independence by that video alone. The fact that it is seriously being promoted by pro-independence supporters indicates to me that they have a tenuous grasp on reality at best. Its awful, absolutely dreadful.
And why do most Scottish political types talk in that fake central Scotland accent, with exaggerated glottal stops? Theres never a Doric voice, an Orkney accent, a Western Isles tang! Its as if even there voiced fricatives have to be dumbed down to the same level of perceived "working man of the 1920's" ideal that they seem to hold so dear!"

"Most likely to be a highly divisive democracy with low voter turnout and poor social mobility, but incredibly preachy about how lefty and better than other countries it is? (a bit like now really but more smug?)!"

" I think it means that thick uneducated people get to tell the rest of us what to do in parliament and a few of them get to travel by First Class Rail?"

LessMissAbs · 21/11/2013 22:26

Ah, I see. So no-one else is allowed to comment, unless they make propaganda. Politics is not for the ordinary person, but only for politicians. And if you dare to question that, you get excluded. Sounds great.

Caitlin17 · 21/11/2013 22:31

Well you missed out my objections to faux gaelicisms. I don't really have anything more to add. I think devolution was a mistake and if independence happens it will be an even bigger mistake.

I truly hope it doesn't happen, I don't know anyone who is in favour, but possibly I'm the wrong demographic.

FannyFifer · 21/11/2013 22:46

The utter hypocrisy of someone complaining about political intolerance when that person has been the most intolerant and offensive person on the thread is laughable.

LessMissAbs · 21/11/2013 22:49

I've met two Independence supporters in real life but on FB I have perhaps 4 additional acquaintances who post frequent pro independence guff - I've seen "short video" before. I get the impression that people like Itsallgoingtobefine don't like being challenged, and don't really know how to deal with alternative viewpoints, other than by telling them they are wrong. Critical analysis or even humorous or sarcastic analysis is beyond them, because they cannot perceive that anyone in their right mind would possibly have a different view from themselves. If you do successfully challenge them, their usual resort is that they either tell you to leave Scotland, or they tell you you are bad/mad/weird.

But I have to say its an attitude shared by a lot of strong left wingers in Scotland. There is nothing like the detailed and educated discussion of well informed views you get in countries like Belgium or the Netherlands.

But there seems to be so little introspection or self criticism in the typical modern Scots character that such concepts are pretty much alien. I don't think Scotland was always like this, as it produced great thinkers like John Knox, Erskine and Hume. I have to say that most of the debate that I saw on Scottish television before I left and when I return tends to be of the "Scotland is great and will be greater still" variety. I get the impression that even if an independent Scotland was an absolute disaster, the official line would still be the same, and plenty of people would still believe it.

I don't really want to live in a small country where I will be abused or told I'm stupid for having perfectly acceptable viewpoints, which isn't subject to the checks and balances provided by the UK as a whole.

Generally, I'm in favour of less government, not more (no government worked quite well in Belgium for a while!), for one thing, the former is ridiculously expensive, and it generally doesn't achieve any better results.

LessMissAbs · 21/11/2013 22:52

FannyFifer The utter hypocrisy of someone complaining about political intolerance when that person has been the most intolerant and offensive person on the thread is laughable

There we go. A perfect example. If you actually contributed anything remotely interesting or intelligent to the debate, it would be nothing short of a minor miracle. You are so stuck in your own deluded method of thinking that you are actually incapable of conceiving that anyone might disagree with you and not be wrong.

I might not be perfect, but at least I am trying to think about the debate, and I don't think other people should agree with me. I do however see nothing wrong with having my own opinions.

FannyFifer · 21/11/2013 23:15

A perfect example of what?

Yes I can see now that you being offensive & goading clearly shows that your posts are much more interesting and intelligent than mine. Well done.

TheMrsClooney · 21/11/2013 23:31

AIBU to think that there is no way that you will ever even have to make this choice? Scotland will a part of UK.

Note: I am not giving my opinion on whether it should or not because I am not Scottish and it is up to the people of Scotland to decide this.

I am merely saying what I think is most likely to happen.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 21/11/2013 23:37

lessmissabs There has been a wide variety of issues discussed on this thread. You have without fail dismissed any points that are in favour of independence. You have dismissed them by saying that the poster/scots are wrong (to put it politely).

You have not once backed up your opinions with any evidence that would meet your own high standards. Saying that you are better educated and more intelligent than other people is not a valid argument.

Caitlin17 · 21/11/2013 23:54

To be fair Itsallgoingtobefine no one on the fo r side has produced any evidence either . I've been told "it's going to be a fairer and more equal society" I've asked but had no explanation what that is actually going to entail.

I have been told by one of you, that whatever it might be, it will need higher taxes and by someone else, that won't be the case as Scotland will be rich.

The video and websites referred to are pure propaganda and really can't be taken seriously.

One could say your side is the one who wants to change the status quo and therefore needs to come up with hard facts.

Blind faith in a cause with which I have no emotional engagement really doesn't cut it.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 22/11/2013 08:39

*I've been told "it's going to be a fairer and more equal society" I've asked but had no explanation what that is actually going to entail.

I have been told by one of you, that whatever it might be, it will need higher taxes and by someone else, that won't be the case as Scotland will be rich*

Obviously this question cannot be answered with great certainty as it depends a lot on how Scots vote after independence, and as you have seen on this thread some people support higher taxation, some don't. But given Scots historical voting patterns it is likely that the nation would be more left than right.

This document from the Yes campaign sets out what a more just nation means, how it could be achieved and why Westminster is stopping it. Yes it is produced by the Yes campaign but facts and figures are referenced, and examples are given of the ideas working in other countries. (The download link isis in 3rd para ).

www.yesscotland.net/answers/will-independence-address-unfairness-our-society

Or direct download link

d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/yesscotland/pages/1747/attachments/original/1361806693/Yes_to_a_Just_Scotland.pdf?1361806693

The Common Weal (linked to earlier in the thread) is also an interesting read.

Now, I am certain that you will not agree with the sources or the contents, but it would be useful for the debate if rather than just rubbishing them, you could point by point refute, with reasoning.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 22/11/2013 08:39

*I've been told "it's going to be a fairer and more equal society" I've asked but had no explanation what that is actually going to entail.

I have been told by one of you, that whatever it might be, it will need higher taxes and by someone else, that won't be the case as Scotland will be rich*

Obviously this question cannot be answered with great certainty as it depends a lot on how Scots vote after independence, and as you have seen on this thread some people support higher taxation, some don't. But given Scots historical voting patterns it is likely that the nation would be more left than right.

This document from the Yes campaign sets out what a more just nation means, how it could be achieved and why Westminster is stopping it. Yes it is produced by the Yes campaign but facts and figures are referenced, and examples are given of the ideas working in other countries. (The download link isis in 3rd para ).

www.yesscotland.net/answers/will-independence-address-unfairness-our-society

Or direct download link

d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/yesscotland/pages/1747/attachments/original/1361806693/Yes_to_a_Just_Scotland.pdf?1361806693

The Common Weal (linked to earlier in the thread) is also an interesting read.

Now, I am certain that you will not agree with the sources or the contents, but it would be useful for the debate if rather than just rubbishing them, you could point by point refute, with reasoning.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 22/11/2013 08:40

Oops, sorry for double post!

Caitlin17 · 22/11/2013 09:13

I did read The Common Weal, and commented on it. It and the other sites are wish lists. There are no hard facts or answers beyond "it's all going to be wonderful"

The yes campaign refuse to consider details and expect a blind leap of faith. I'm not impressed by what Holyrood has done so far.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 22/11/2013 09:51

So which parts, specifically, do you have an issue with and I/we will try and provide you with more information.

Your reply could have been written without reading the sites I referred to.

LessMissAbs · 22/11/2013 10:55

Itsallgoing So which parts, specifically, do you have an issue with and I/we will try and provide you with more information

You're really not getting this, are you? Its not a matter of you "providing more information". You aren't some magnificent source of all information that could possibly need to be provided.

Why the arrogance? Do you have qualifications and experience that make you think persuading people to your cause is simply a matter of providing them with more information?

Who on earth would want to live in a society and be subjected to that on a regular basis? It would drive any reasonably intelligent person mad! (or away...perhaps that's the aim - no competition for overpaid public sector jobs).

The problem is, the information you provide (a) isn't available, because no-one knows for certain what will happen and (b) when provided by you, is poor quality, badly resourced and biased.

You have consistently provided a string of unimpressive, inaccurate, biased communist leaning drivel.

Since not everybody is a left wing middle aged overpaid man from the central belt working in a union-dominated industry, not everyone finds that sort of stuff relevant to their lives.

I have noticed that independence supporters usual discussion technique is to bombard with dubious information, over and over again, in the mistaken belief that this can substitute for intelligent debate.

I think sometimes in a tiny country of just over 5 million people like Scotland, its easy to forget that there is a whole other world out there with lots of people with totally different political viewpoints, doing quite well.

LessMissAbs · 22/11/2013 11:03

Now, I am certain that you will not agree with the sources or the contents, but it would be useful for the debate if rather than just rubbishing them, you could point by point refute, with reasoning.

You want someone else to critically analyse the "yes" campaign's poor attempts at literature so they can change them and make them better? For free?

"Will an independent Scotland address the unacceptable levels of poverty we are tolerating at present?"

OK, problem here is that is a loaded question - one which suggests the answer in its wording. It is biased from the outset, and everything that follows is by analogy going to be equally biased. It is not neutral.

"We’ve produced a number of materials making the case for independence on this basis. The campaign centres on our document “Yes to a Just Scotland” which was published in response to a consultation by the STUC called “A Just Scotland”.

You can see our publication here and our campaign briefing and fairness leaflet can be downloaded from our Resources section.

Ultimately, the details of what social policy would be implemented in Scotland will depend on who is elected to form the government in May 2016.

Similarly, we can’t say with total precision what UK government social policy will be after the election in May 2015. However, we can speak about the general direction of travel.

We know, for example, that Scottish MPs and the Scottish Parliament are opposed to many of the Westminster government’s welfare reforms – and it is very likely that some of these measures would be among the first to be repealed on independence.

Already the current Scottish Government has committed itself to abolishing the unfair bedroom tax, and to reforming universal credit single household payments which create barriers for second adults, usually women, from taking employment if they wish to.

One part of the transition to independence will involve the drawing up of a written constitution and there will be a debate about whether rights to welfare and housing and other social rights might be successfully included in the written constitution that would be drawn up.

Yes Scotland believes that the more issues such as welfare and fairness play a part in the independence debate, the greater the impetus there will be to create a fairer society after a Yes vote has been obtained.

In contrast, both the UK Government and the Westminster Labour party are signed up to the austerity agenda.

We believe the political parties in Scotland, from the SNP and Greens to Scottish Labour would choose a different approach.

Only a Yes vote in 2014 offers a better way."

Its not really necessary to go through this point by point, because exactly the same comment can be applied to all of it:

"no supporting evidence provided to back up points. No substantive content. Biased, non-neutral side given only. This is like something a schoolchild would write as it doesn't even approach first year university level."

Apart from the comments on planning, the Common Weal stuff can be attributed the same criticisms. I am shocked that academics want to attach their names to such generalised poor quality comments with no evidence to back it up.

Sallyingforth · 22/11/2013 11:50

I have to agree that most of the Yes campaign seems to be offering lots of goodies on the basis that an independent Scotland would 'be free to do this' or 'be able to do this' or 'would have to means to do this'.
No-one doubts their good intentions, but you need more that good intentions or there would be no poverty in the world.

And I don't see how the Yes campaign can dare to promise anything at all when everyone agrees that it won't be the Yes campaign in government.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 22/11/2013 11:57

I am shocked that academics want to attach their names to such generalised poor quality comments with no evidence to back it up

Which is exactly what you/the No Campaign are doing. I post something, in your opinion it is wrong. Where is the evidence that is wrong.?

Do you think an independent Scotland won't address poverty?

Or do you think the levels of poverty are acceptable?

As for your C and P that was part of the introduction to the paper. As a well educated individual I am sure that you are aware that the meat of the argument, including any references to evidence, will be found in the main part not the introduction.

I am perfectly happy for you to refute my arguments by linking to biased Better Together sources, that would be useful for me/other readers if this thread.

All you are doing though is trying to shut down the debate by saying that I am stupid. That is not engaging with the argument, or making any useful comment.

It would be great if this debate could have two sides. Positive cases put forward by both the yes and the No camps, as well as a constructive discussion of each sides arguments and their merits.

prettybird · 22/11/2013 12:27

What I don't understand is why the media so many people are obsessed with what Scotland will look like IF the vote were Yes Confused

I can understand that people want to know that those driving the Yes campaign have thought about all potential consequences - the premise of this thread is one - but, given that the UK Government won't even start to discuss the fine details until after a Yes vote, all the "Yes" (and "No") proponents can do is outline what they would like to happen.

The current SNP Scottish Government would have the strongest input as the party in power while the negotiations were underway - but surely the ongoing "shape" of the country would depend on whoever the Scottish people chose to elect? Confused And we don't know who that will be.

Scottish Labour might be a re-vitalised force following a Yes vote - and even the Tories could re-invent themselves. I have a fantastic local Tory councillor although I'm not sure how much of that is due to the fact that he is the only Tory on the council and therefore has no internal politics to deal with Wink

People should vote "Yes" or "No" depending on whether they think it is the "right" thing to do. I know my father is planning on voting Yes because he is terrified of the way the NHS in England is being privatised (which had already started before the Tories came in) and he thinks we have a different set of values in Scotland. That's his view as a retired doctor and a previously until the Iraq War life long Labour voter.

Whether or not we are a couple of pounds a head better or worse of (even if you believe the projections: the UK projections for 50 years ahead have hardly been infallible Hmm), it is far too important a decision to base on short term concerns.

SantanaLopez · 22/11/2013 14:05

What I don't understand is why the media so many people are obsessed with what Scotland will look like IF the vote were Yes

I don't understood how people are not interested in what Scotland will look like, or are content with 'it will all be settled afterwards'. How can you vote without even having a basic idea?!

given that the UK Government won't even start to discuss the fine details until after a Yes vote

This sounds like a really poor excuse to be honest. Why would the UK government do the Yes campaign's work for them?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 22/11/2013 14:16

I don't understood how people are not interested in what Scotland will look like, or are content with 'it will all be settled afterwards

I don't understand why people aren't more interested in what Scotland will look like in the event of a No vote, or are content with not knowing how future Westminster government policy will affect Scotland.

this sounds like a really poor excuse to be honest. Why would the UK government do the Yes campaign's work for them

It's not a poor excuse. The vast majority of criticism on this thread is because the Yes campaign can't give detailed answers:

What will Scotland's currency be?
Requires negotiation with rUK

Will Scotland be in the EU?
Requires negotiation with the EU/UK

Who will own the oil?
Requires negotiation with rUK

None of these questions can be fully answered until the Westminster government engages with the process, but they are, understandably, unwilling to "prenegotiate the break up of the United Kingdom". It is not an excuse, it is just the way it is.

All any of us can do is use the available information, and try and predict likely outcomes. Nothing can be certain with a No or a Yes vote, and as individuals we all need to look at as much information we can, and make an individual decision based on what potential future we feel is most likely.

This is equally true whether you are in the Yes or the No camp. There are just as many uncertainties either way.

prettybird · 22/11/2013 14:32

Both the SNP and the Greens have put forward visions as to what they beloved Scotland should look like - which understandably (given that they are different parties) are not exactly the same.

I've always managed to find an answer to any question I might have via a simple Google search. For example, enter "Yes Scotland Passport" into Google and top of the list is this and the second item was a BBC piece The only uncertainty I could find came from Teresa May who seemed to imply that the UK wouldn't allow dual citizenship to Scots, despite allowing many other countries the right to have that option. If that were the case, it would be particularly petty on the UK Government's part - and may make some undecided voters wonder why Scotland is being differently.