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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To want to keep my UK passport if Scotland votes YES in the 2014 referendum?

967 replies

SittingBull1 · 16/11/2013 19:50

If the majority of people actually voting votes YES in the 2014 referendum, Scotland will leave the UK. As Scots living in Scotland, will my family and I lose our UK passports? Along with a very large number of NO voters, my family and I will want to retain our UK passports, and I'm sure that a huge percentage of the non-voters will also want to keep theirs. I think that the UK government should offer to allow Scots living in Scotland to retain their UK passports. Is that unreasonable?

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kaumana · 19/11/2013 18:49

In conversations had round the water cooler , it transpires that the majority do not realise that the SNP is made up of individuals from different political parties.

The majority believe it would be the SNP for the foreseeable future. They don't seem to understand that new parties will come into play.

In regards to English opinion of not caring, I can somewhat understand the "Off you fuck" idea. I wouldn't appreciate being told that you could do better alone after being. in the same team

OldLadyKnowsNothing · 19/11/2013 19:03

The SNP is made up of SNP members, with similar political views. The YES campaign is made up of individuals of many political colours, there are Labour for Yes, Green for Yes, even Poles for Yes. A yes vote means we can choose our own gvt, not that that gvt will be forever SNP. As noted above, it is possible there will be a Tory resurgence and the SNP will fade away, who knows? If we end up with a Tory gvt in an indy Holyrood, it'll be because we voted for them. As it stands, there's one Tory MP representing a Scottish constituency, and who's holding the reins?

kaumana · 19/11/2013 19:11

oldlady Ah, thanks for explaining. Perhaps you can spread the word, as for the majority ( me included)it seems very confusing Grin

OldLadyKnowsNothing · 19/11/2013 19:18

It's true, there is a lot of conflation of issues. Naturally, the SNP support the Yes Campaign, but it's really a grassroots organisation with Blair Jenkins at the helm. There are hundreds of small "yes" groups, from my Twitterfeed just about every town and region in Scotland has one, not to mention student groups. BetterTogether are faring less well on the grassroots front (and have even been accused of being Astroturf Shock) but they're concentrating on #ProjectFear.

It's all great fun. Grin

SittingBull1 · 19/11/2013 19:20

I can leave my marriage any time I like, and I don't have to leave to prove it.

A poster for Alistair, darling. Obviously, the woman has red hair a la Brave, but more mature.

On the vote not being on Devo Max, if the result is NO then it's all up for grabs again. I heard something on the radio last night about Wales getting tax-raising, or tax-varying powers. People were saying that the border ran through their street, and they would be paying tax in one place and living in another (which has happened for decades in Ireland). This isn't going away with an independent Scotland.

I agree that it is a mistake to think of rUK, or England or Scotland, as if it is all the same politically and I've no doubt that Conservatives in Scotland vote as tactically to keep Labour out as Labour voters did to keep Conservatives out. Also, it's not reasonable to conclude that the majority of the UK electorate or actual voters voted for the coalition. Nobody did. It's just what we got instead of a hung parliament after the negotiations that followed the election. The Conservative and Liberal high heid yins decided to have that particular coalition, not the voters. I don't think what might be labelled the SDP wing of the Liberals is happy with it at all.

PR is perhaps an issue but the problem is structural rather than just procedural; it's about how the constituent nations are treated in relation to each other, and to what extent their separate national identities should override the principle of distribution according to need, and vice versa. To what extent should everyone in the UK have exactly the same welfare rights or should the individual nations be able to set their own priorities in determining how to spend their own budgets? Health and education are devolved matters in Scotland at the moment and the Scottish Govt must determine how to spend its budget, but then people in England sometimes complain that he Scots get free prescriptions or free tuition and they don't and that it's unfair. That's a bit like people in Texas complaining that people in California (Scotland is very like California! Wine) get better welfare rights, but they have a point. Is national identity more important than UK-wide welfare rights? I don't think most people in Scotland or in the UK think that. The UK's welfare state is much maligned these days but it is the single biggest contribution that the UK has made to the improvement of the lives of everyone in the UK. Sometimes people with little interest in history don't understand how much difference it has made; sometimes they think our hugely improved standard of living is just the result of market forces. After all Americans are rich too. But they do it at the expense of having millions of very poor people in a very rich country; the disparity is much greater there, but it has been getting bigger in the UK in recent years and that in itself could cause the dissolution of the UK. I know that LessMiss finds the more-left-than-them rhetoric nauseating but the loss of pride in the welfare state in the UK is a factor both in the SNP's wish for independence and in the electorate's support for them.

I'm not agin a written constitution, although there are problems with trying to codify principles instead of allowing common sense to prevail as things develop. (See the historic right to bear arms in USA constitution, which was intended for militias when they were necessary to the defence of the country; and the possibility of usurpation, applying the rights set out in the constitution only to Greeks, whites, males or people with freckles, as the political fashion dictates.)

Re secret committees, I would imagine that almost every organisation has secret committees, and there are good procedural reasons for doing so. Politicians would get nothing done if the press was constantly spinning their every word to suit their market. However, I've certainly attended a committee meeting at the Scottish Parliament, with DH, DS and DD in tow. (I'm not involved in the parliament or in party politics or the civil service - just a member of the public.) As far as I remember, it was about prisons and it was very encouraging to see how well people from parties opposite each other in the political spectrum co-operated in committee and had sensible discussions clearly aiming for optimal solutions to genuine problems. I think Labour had the majority in the parliament, but I think the chairman was a Conservative and one of the sensible contributors was a member of the party that was led by Tommy Sheridan at the time. Perhaps we shouldn't have been there (?) but nobody tried to put us out.

I think politicians generally do a much better job than they get credit for, and are genuinely working in the service of the public, but they are subject to party discipline, career considerations and political compromise, like anyone else who works for a living. A lot of the newspaper stuff about expenses claims is just nonsense; some claims were ridiculous, but most were just MPs making up their pay, as instructed, because there was no political will to raise their salaries to sensible levels. They would mostly be much better paid elsewhere and no sensible boss would complain about them travelling long-distance to work by first class rail so that they could get some work done instead of reading a book, listening to music and enjoying the varied company of the majority in second class.

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SantanaLopez · 19/11/2013 19:23

I am not saying that every individual in rUK supports the current government, but they are in power so obviously the majority do.

They are a coalition. No one voted for a coalition. The electoral system allowed for the creation of a coalition.

What does 'being Astroturf' mean? Some hip new slang?!

forgetmenots · 19/11/2013 19:24

OldLady you're of course right, but I'm fascinated that the SNP members often don't share much in common (or, that's how it appears to me). Some I could really support but others I would wash my hands of. They've really pulled off quite a thing getting the motley crew they've assembled to work as a party, for the most part.

FWIW I would love to see lots of small parties in Scotland post-independence. As much as I agree that Scotland has often voted more left than the South of England (probably on a par with Wales and parts of the north of England to be fair), I think a new political climate entirely could see some better representation.

I love SittingBull's idea about not having to leave to prove you can and I really wish I agreed with it, but I can't. The UL government could have vetoed a referendum if they had been less sensible.

I'm excited to see the white paper but it won't resolve any of the argument on this thread. It will be a series of proposals which I'm sure we will all enjoy discussing but they will be rebutted - fairly and unfairly alike - by the UK Govt and No campaign. I know I've said it before and I understand why it won't happen, but I wish they could negotiate now and let people have a clearer picture.

SantanaLopez · 19/11/2013 19:25

On the SNP/ Yes campaign- as someone posted above thread, it is hard to separate the two, especially since Salmond will be the one waving a Saltire on top of Edinburgh castle if there is a yes vote.

Tbf, a lot of the 'yes' don't seem to think that the SNP will come out of power- look at people on this thread suggesting free tuition and free prescriptions as an incentive.

bluecheeseforbreakfast · 19/11/2013 19:28

Coming a little late to the party, but I also would want to keep a British passport.

My situation is a little different, I was born in Scotland but my parents are both English, I no longer live in the UK and my place of birth is a Scottish city so would it be assumed I was Scottish? Would I have to apply for a Brittish passport using my parent's "Englishness" as back up. I also have a ds who is Swedish and British, would it mean that he was now Swedish/scottish?

I moved to England when I was 1, I have no experience of Scottish culture and I in no way feel Scottish but I don't have an English address to back up my "Englishness"

OldLadyKnowsNothing · 19/11/2013 19:34

Erm , just want to point out that education and health have always been "devolved" issues, education (and church, and the legal system) were kept separate when we signed the Act and Treaties of Union back in 1707 (the Crowns were united in 1603) and the NHS had been separate since it's inception in 1948. Both Labour and the Tories have made it clear that if we vote no, they will indeed seek further influence in these areas; there will be no "devomax".

Which is a shame, because I do agree that devomax would be the better choice all round. But as it's yes/no, I'll be saying yes.

SittingBull1 · 19/11/2013 19:36

I suspect the ruth is that the rUK would want Scotland out of the EU if it was out of the EU. Having Scotland in while rUK was out would increase the complexity of the separation.

In fact, Theresa May has recently used the 'Scotland might have to accept Schengen (open borders - which the UK doesn't at the moment) to suggest that Scots couldn't have UK passports. The implication is that Scots would have to stump up several hundreds of pounds extra to take their families abroad on holiday the summer following independence day. This real cost to a family is in contrast to putative savings of a similar sum that might result from the alleged economic advantages of independence.

Also, I suspect that the EU has no interest in the dissolution of one of its member states and won't be rushing to say that you can both stay if they think it would encourage a break-up.

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SittingBull1 · 19/11/2013 19:37

Oops. I didn't mean ruth. i meant truth.

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OldLadyKnowsNothing · 19/11/2013 19:47

Astroturfing. BetterTogether's biggest campaign donation, of half a million quid, came from a businessman named Ian Taylor, whose company Vitol paid a million dollars to notorious Serbian warlord Arkan. Mr Taylor does not have a vote, nor does he live in Scotland.

Spiritedwolf · 19/11/2013 19:50

It is not the Labour position that there will be no further devolution, and it is certainly not the Labour position that powers of health/education etc that Scotland has would be given to the British Government.

Gordon Brown has said publically ways in which he would like devolution to be strengthened. There is a working group which is working out Labour's proposals for the future of devolution, I guess we'll have to wait for their proposals just as we've had to wait for the Scottish Government's white paper.

HTH :)

SittingBull1 · 19/11/2013 19:51

In fact, if Scotland couldn't be in the EU without agreeing to open borders, rUK would want Scotland out regardless of whether or not it (rUK) was in. The obvious solution is that iScotland should be allowed to stay in on the same terms as rUK, and that they should both be on the same terms as UK. In order to retain the advantages of being in on the same terms as rUK, iScotland would have to play ball with rUK and once again one wonders what is the point of the separation.

This is where I'd like more input from experts on the EU, how it works and what the political factors are there.

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SittingBull1 · 19/11/2013 20:11

BlueCheese,

If you don't live in Scotland you don't get a vote in the referendum and I can't see why anyone would want to remove your UK passport. (I don't think they would be removing anyone's passport anyway. It's too absurd. Your nationality doesn't change overnight just because of someone else's political decision.)

Given the choice of a UK or a Scottish passport, if that's what happens, residents of Scotland will stick with a UK one because it will cost them more for a new one. If you're not a resident of Scotland you might not get the choice of a Scottish one and have to stick with a UK one, which is what you want anyway.

This is all conjecture on my part, an it's all down to political decisions, but I think we can assume a degree of good will and a desire to avoid situations which will leave people with no passports a la Spike Milligan, who apparently was born of Irish and English parents, born in India, lived most of his life in the UK, apparently became stateless under the British nationality Act 1981 and had to go for irish nationality at that time on the basis of his Irish parent. (Just had a few good laughs checking that out on Google.)

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SantanaLopez · 19/11/2013 20:12

Cheers OldLady. There seems a bit of a legal stooshie on that case, so I think I'll keep quiet if you don't mind!

Re Schengen- am I right in thinking this would mean border controls and passports between rUK?

merrymouse · 19/11/2013 20:15

I don't think it's really fair to write off the South East as a bunch of Daily Mail readers. Granted a lot of Daily Mail readers live there, but the average Londoner is not a white reader of the Daily Mail. Looking at population size, I wouldn't be surprised if the number of people in the South East who didn't vote for Cameron is greater than the entire population of Scotland. Nobody voted for the coalition.

forgetmenots · 19/11/2013 20:24

That certainly wasn't my intention merrymouse (not sure if you meant me saying Scotland tends to vote more left than the south of England).
The population distribution (and wealth distribution) is obviously a factor - but I don't think that at all.

OldLadyKnowsNothing · 19/11/2013 20:46

Re Schengen, it's an interesting point. UK and Ireland are in a Common Travel Agreement already, which is why one can fly from the UK to Dublin without a passport, and Ireland is not part of Schengen, though they are, of course, in EU. So it seems reasonable that iScotland could also remain/opt out of Schengen, since the alternative would be for rUK to set up border controls. Given the hassle and unecessary expense for business and general travellers, and the almost-certain massive unpopularity of such a move, I think some sensible, grown-up discussions can be had.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 19/11/2013 20:52

There is a working group which is working out Labour's proposals for the future of devolution, I guess we'll have to wait for their proposals just as we've had to wait for the Scottish Government's white paper

Now this is something I would like to see. The Yes campaign paints a rosy picture of the future whereas the No campaign tends to be more negative. I would love to see manifestos from the main parties with concrete proposals* on exactly what they would offer Scotland in the event of a No vote. At the moment its all doom and gloom for Scotland in the event of a Yes vote, I'd love to see some positives in the event of a No vote.

At the moment I am a Yes supporter because on balance the research I have done leads me to believe that Independence would be a better option. If the No campaign could come out with some positive reasons to stay, instead of vague threats and prophecies of doom I might well change my mind. I think a minority of voters on either sides opinions are set in stone, I think most of us will be weighing up the evidence until the day of the vote.

For what its worth, I think the No campaign would win straight away if all of the main parties promised a devo Max in the event of a No vote.*

*Obviously politicians are prone to lying so that would have to be factored in.

SittingBull1 · 19/11/2013 20:53

OldLady,

I understand and share the general revulsion at the suggestion of anyone funding the genocidal activities we saw in former Yugoslavia, if that is what is being suggested. (I'm actually not clear whether the suggestion is merely that Mr Taylor's company bought something form Arkan's company and he later turned out to be a war criminal, which would put rather a different light on the matter and, I'm sorry, but I can't bear to look into it any more than necessary for the purpose of this answer.)

However, consider the following:

A donation to A is wrong.
A donation to B is not wrong.
Therefore, if I donate to A I am doing something wrong and if I donate to B I am doing something not wrong.

Logically, the fact that at some point I donated to A cannot make the donation to B wrong, whether B is the Harris Tweed industry or the Better Together campaign.

Pragmatically, people are complex; they sometimes do the right thing and they sometimes do the wrong thing, but the right thing is still right and the wrong thing still wrong for the reasons that it is right or wrong, which are nothing to do with the identity of the doer per se (i.e. they would be right or wrong regardless of who did them) or any of the other things he might have done, which have no logical connection - they were merely done by the same person.

It is impossible to derive from the above syllogism that the object of the action (the Harris Tweed industry or the Better Together campaign in this instance) is wrong because it has a right action done to it by someone who previously did a wrong thing to someone else. That's just illogical. You might think that donating to the Better Together campaign is the 'wrong' thing to do in the non-moral sense of not being likely to active the acknowledged goal, but that has nothing to do with Serbian war criminals or Swiss companies.

The trouble is that people are revolted such a wrong thing and it smears the doer and potentially smears other things he does and other people he does them to (in a friendly way). But it is just smearing. There is no logical connection, or 'link', as the National Collective would call it.

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SittingBull1 · 19/11/2013 20:55

Sorry: achieve, not active.

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SittingBull1 · 19/11/2013 20:58

Old Lady,

Good point about Ireland and Schengen. I didn't realise that, although I did go to Dublin once and no passport asked for.

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OldLadyKnowsNothing · 19/11/2013 21:01

The problem with Unionist parties promising further devolution, devomax, is that some of us are old enough to remember previous such promises which were not delivered, or at any rate not delivered quickly. I agree that most Scots would prefer devomax, but it's not on offer, because WM reckoned they could scare us into staying by insisting on the yes/no vote. I hope that comes back to bit them on the bum.

But you're right, it's all scare stories from the no lot. I wish they'd come up with some more positive stuff, if the Union is so great in current condition, why are we still too poor, too wee to stand on our own two feet?