To want to keep my UK passport if Scotland votes YES in the 2014 referendum?

[SittingBull1]

If the majority of people actually voting votes YES in the 2014 referendum, Scotland will leave the UK. As Scots living in Scotland, will my family and I lose our UK passports? Along with a very large number of NO voters, my family and I will want to retain our UK passports, and I'm sure that a huge percentage of the non-voters will also want to keep theirs. I think that the UK government should offer to allow Scots living in Scotland to retain their UK passports. Is that unreasonable?

So anyway, a serious question. I have heard all about what independence will do for the working man, the traditional industries, the trade unions, the unemployed, those who desire greater equality, the English born shopkeeper, and so on.

But what about someone like me? An educated professional woman who wasn't born privileged beyond an ability at passing professional exams and to work hard?

Will it lead to a less sexist society, one less interested in preserving the status quo of overpaid male dominated industries? Will it lead to talent being promoted and well paid or not? Will I be able to have enough of my hard earned salary left after tax to enjoy some leisure time? Will I be able to get to work on public transport and a roads network the equivalent of the average European country? Will my bins be collected by a balanced and equal workforce, and not by a union dominated male one who won't lift a finger on h&s grounds if the bin lid is open a cm? Will it lead to a more open society, one which is capable of having a calm rational debate about its faults, as well as its good points? Will its politicians come from a wide variety of working people and not just party members, activists, and public sector workers, as at present?

That's pretty much the plan, yes. A "fairer, more equal society". But it's up to us, in an indy Scotland, to achieve that. Marvellous opportunity!

...because it sounds more like creating an ideal society for even more jobs for the boys to me...and a few token girls to make it look better.

Why on earth you can't have achieved more equality already in a first world country with excellent free universal education until age 16 is beyond me.

Will you be equalising me with someone who is really lazy, can't be bothered working and is drinking and smoking themselves to an early grave? Hows that going to work? Will they get to live in my house and me in theirs? Or will I simply pay even more tax?

There's quite a nasty undertone to some of the yes propoganda in smug, snide, sneery videos like that and sites like Bellacaleddonia.

Imagine the squeals of outrage if the No campaign had a similar video.

Eck and co also have a very unappealing habit of responding to serious questions by suggesting that asking questions is doing Scotland down.

As for EU membership I've lost track of the different versions of whether or not they had a legal opinion, or whether they even asked for one and why they wouldn't answer any straight questions about it.

old lady by a "fairer, more equal society," I assumed you mean a massive redistribution of wealth by higher taxes and compulsory state acquisition.

Alternatively as the Yes campaign seems determined to portray the people of Scotland as lovely idealists longing to throw off their shackles what, exactly has stopped Scotland not creating a fair and equal society before now?

You assume wrong. And Westminster.

As for a nasty tone, have you seen some of the BitterTogether #ProjectFear shit? Where they'll close our borders and bomb our airports, while annexing Faslane, thereby leaving us a terrorist target?

Ask questions, but don't expect guarantees no-one can give. And if you really want an answer to the EU question, put pressure on your MP, because only WM has the authority to ask the EU. They haven't, and they won't. Why not?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine

Quoting you: I think the theory is that if one of the signatories leaves the treaty on unions then the treaty is broken for all?

Well no, Apart from anything else, the UK is not the UK of England and Scotland. There are other bits too.

This is how it worked: In 1707, the old kingdoms of Scotland and England (by this time including Wales) were dissolved and a new Kingdom of Great Britain created. In 1801, the same process reoccured, this time uniting the Kingdom of Great Britain with the Kingdom of Ireland, thus creating the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. When Ireland was partitioned in 1922, it became the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

The UK is not a federation. It has one crown and one sovereign parliament*

*(all powers held by the Scottish Parliament and government are delegated to it by the parliament at Westminster).

Why on earth should Cameron be doing Eck's dogsbdy work over EU membership.

Eck and Nicola made several misleading statements about having had legal advice on this issue, refused to release the details, and I think the final version was they didn't have advice at all.

I did actually write to Eck on this point and the reply I got was obfuscation at its finest.

And Westminster is to blame for everything, really ? So what have the MSPs been doing then?

I'm genuinely puzzled, what do you mean by this fairer and more equal society? It's a phrase that gets trotted out, but how? What injustices are going to be addressed?

Quite so. As regards Europe, the Yes camp are dressing up hope as expectation. Presumably, they are doing this on the basis that if Scotland votes yes, and their promises don't work out as expected, it won't matter.

vimeo.com/62217976 linked by EachieOachie as "Short Video" is terrible! I linked this on my Facebook page, bearing in mind a lot of my FB friends are of other European nationality, and the reaction is increduality - comments include "Is that real?", "Are they speaking Gaelic?" and "Why are they publishing such propaganda?" and "Verschrikelijk!" (that's not complimentary).

It really is bad. I honestly think that any person with remotely any intelligence, or a brain to think for themselves with, would be really put off independence by that video alone. The fact that it is seriously being promoted by pro-independence supporters indicates to me that they have a tenuous grasp on reality at best. Its awful, absolutely dreadful.

And why do most Scottish political types talk in that fake central Scotland accent, with exaggerated glottal stops? Theres never a Doric voice, an Orkney accent, a Western Isles tang! Its as if even there voiced fricatives have to be dumbed down to the same level of perceived "working man of the 1920's" ideal that they seem to hold so dear!

I did enjoy the remark about how Cameron "refuses to ask the EU" whether Scotland would remain a member.

It's a legal question, so you ask a lawyer, like Cameron did and Salmond ... um.. err.. didn't .

their voiced fricatives

It's difficult to see how a vote in a referendum could legally strip a UK citizen of his or her UK passport
SittingBull, I'm not suggesting that anyone should be stripped of their passport, simply because it's not practical.
But you want Scotland to be an independent country, yes? That means you will have your own laws, taxes, defence and borders. You will also need your own passports. The passport is a badge and evident of citizenship. Why, as an independent country, would you want your citizens to use the passports of a foreign country?

If I go and live in France, I can do so as a UK citizen with my UK passport. Or, I can choose to become a French citizen if I meet the French government's criteria. I would expect anyone living in Scotland to make the same decision - to become a Scottish citizen with a Scottish passport, or remain a UK citizen with their UK passport. A very simple choice. And anyone living outside Scotland but wishing to be a Scottish citizen can of course apply for a Scottish passport if they meet your criteria.

Naturally, anyone in Scotland at the time of independence will be able to keep their existing passport until it expires, and will have that time to decide which country they wish to belong to, with a passport to prove it.

It really is that simple.

evident = evidence

I expect those who choose to live in an independent Scotland will have to take out Scottish citizenship - just as Australians and New Zealanders did after WW2.

I hardly think it's a big deal though. Don't Irish citizens have pretty much the same rights of abode etc as UK citizens?

No problem with right of abode, especially if both countries remain in the EC.
You're right to mention Ireland, Toad - they have their own passports, but have certain reserved rights. I would expect an Independent Scotland to be in a very similar position.

As for the EU issue, I thought it was no secret that its an unknown variable, but most likely that Scotland would have to apply for membership as a new state which would require to sign international treaties on its own behalf.

Unless the EU decides to apply some hitherto unknown discretion to allow it to remain a member - unlikely as there is no basis in EU law for that, and the countries which will object to Scotland's membership application would also object - I believe they are Spain (because they think it will encourage Basque separatism), Malta and Cyprus. So Scotland would become an EU applicant state, similar to Turkey, Macedonia, Montenegro, Iceland and Serbia. Or alternatively not be a member of the EU, like Norway.

Incidentally, Salmond made this threat on behalf of Scotland:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10147764/Alex-Salmond-threatens-to-blockade-North-Sea-over-EU-membership.html

Has anybody said how this will affect people who are currently living in Scotland on a European passport?

The paucity of academic viewpoints (as opposed to propaganda, blogs, from non-academics) is worrying. This may be why:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10445525/Academics-must-defend-the-right-to-free-speech.html

"Sadly, we now face the situation whereby distinguished Scottish scholars – former holders of senior positions in our universities – claim that they are, in effect, being lent on by the Scottish Government. In an open letter, the academics say they are being urged not to disagree with the SNP’s policy of breaking up Britain.

This is an unprecedented action but it has been provoked, they say, because of attempts to severely restrict their colleagues’ freedom of speech by senior ministers."

In other words, they think they'll lose their jobs or not get promoted if they give any opinions on the issue in public.

I also found this comment on Salmond's non-claim of legal advice on EU membership:

forums.theregister.co.uk/forum/2/2013/10/11/slippery_salmond_and_the_scottish_naughty_party/#c_1985793

I am very late to this party!

I am Scottish, I was born there - I grew up there, was educated there and have paid taxes there. I left 10 years ago, but since then I have returned at least twice a year. My DD was born there. I use the legal system, I pay my stamp. I hope to own property there soon. Scotland will always be my home yet I don't get any say in this vote. I feel like I have a valuable perspective on this debate, and a right to a say.

I would assume that even if Scotland weren't part of the EU, there would be arrangements that would mean Scottish and UK residents could work and live in either country, otherwise life would just be too complicated.

However, presumably if you had a UK passport you wouldn't be allowed to vote in Scotland post separation. Maybe you could have a UK postal vote?

merrymouse, there are many questions like these.
I've just written a few more but have deleted them because I don't have time to get bogged down on MN today.

Most of what I hear from the Yes campaign seems to be just bland assurances that 'we can always work it out after independence'.

I'm English and I believe that the Scottish people have the right to choose independence from the UK if they want it. But I am determined that if they should so choose it must be a total, clean break without clinging on to things like passports and interference in our economic policy just because it would be helpful to them.

sallying I completely agree with you that it shouldn't be a have your cake and eat it situation.

But do you understand that as things stand these things are shared, and so the economic policy, passports etc are not 'yours'. They are all of 'ours', and as such would have to be divided up, or agreements reached? That's not cherry-picking, that's a fair settlement which allows things to progress. I would imagine certain things would still remain shared as it would be in the interests of all - not just Scotland - and all countries would be stakeholders in any decisions made.

By the way,as I said up thread, the yes campaign can't say more than that because the UK Government refuses to discuss these matters until there is a yes vote. I hope this stance changes so that we can all go into the vote with all the information.

Sorry can't post more fully,hectic few days but glad to see chat continuing

www.businessforscotland.co.uk/ifs-is-out-of-touch-with-the-reality-of-an-independent-scotland/

Good reading re the nonsense IFS report.