To want to keep my UK passport if Scotland votes YES in the 2014 referendum?

[SittingBull1]

If the majority of people actually voting votes YES in the 2014 referendum, Scotland will leave the UK. As Scots living in Scotland, will my family and I lose our UK passports? Along with a very large number of NO voters, my family and I will want to retain our UK passports, and I'm sure that a huge percentage of the non-voters will also want to keep theirs. I think that the UK government should offer to allow Scots living in Scotland to retain their UK passports. Is that unreasonable?

Mumzy - why no dual nationality and who wouldn't allow it?

R

Caitlin believe it or not I agree with you on how much of the nationalist stuff - particularly online - comes over.

To be fair though we've all had a decent debate about it - not heated but not indifferent - so I guess we're all quite worked up about it, for and against?

I find introducing 'groupthink' into the equation is muddying the waters...groupthink is a theory of intra-group processes which came about in the 1960's - I'm not sure what it has to do with a referendum which is the antithesis of groupthink.

sorry have to wash childrens hair

Sorry, Mumzy. Just realised that your post was a link. They seem to be saying that passports are a Schengen issue and that it's dependent on future Scottish foreign policy.

I'm not sure that it makes sense to automatically strip people in Scotland of their UK passports as Theresa May suggests. Would that apply to English, Welsh and NI people who work in Scotland, and to immigrants who have obtained UK passports?

On the issue of Britishness, which isn't the same as UK passport-holding, RoUK would not be Britain, just as England and Wales did not constitute Britain before the union of 1707.

Sent from the ancient British (i.e. Celtic) kingdom of Strathclyde.

I would guess that current passports would run until they expire and gradually be replaced by a Scottish one.

I agree that the pound is the best option, but I think 'best' is the wrong word to use really. It makes no sense to the nationalist argument- if Westminster is screwing us for all we've got, they aren't going to be kinder to an independent Scotland, are they?

Sorry, my DD is refusing to sleep tonight so I may not be up to scratch!

Ubik,

The groupthink reference came up in an analogy. A referendum is the antithesis of groupthink only if you include all relevant groups in the referendum. If you leave out relevant groups then you don't have the antithesis of groupthink.

There are various groups in relation to the referendum; some have a vote and others don't. I'm assuming here that some of the group of several hundreds of thousand of Scots in the rest of the UK and the millions who live abroad have an interest in what happens to Scotland and have a valuable perspective, gained while living abroad, that they can bring to bear on the question.

Others might argue that the group that consists of all UK citizens not living in Scotland should be included, but I'm sticking to the Scots abroad argument.

To use a slightly different analogy, if you have a group of employees who have all only ever worked for one company then they will all see things within the paradigm of how that company does things and they will find it difficult to think any other way. Someone coming in from another company, sector, discipline might introduce a different and useful perspective. They are the Scots abroad.

I guess the problem of Scots abroad shows up the failings of the campaign. It's just not well organised enough to negotiate and organise voting in the hundreds of countries that Scots happen to be in.

Caitlin17 I don't feel oppressed nor any desire to claim my freedom. An awful lot of nationalism comes across as a bizarre mix of having a chip on both shoulders combined a certain smugness about being more lefty and socialist

That pretty much sums up the way I feel too.

Groupthink seems to sum up very well how the SNP present their policies about the referendum and therefore I find it relevant in understanding why they behave in this slightly odd way.

Sittingbull1 But there are truths, untruths and obfuscations. That's why I'd like a panel of academics (rather than politicians) to discuss the issues with us asking them the questions

Didn't the Principle of St Andrews University yesterday come out to say that she encouraged academics from there to speak on the independence referendum and nail their colours to the mast, so to speak? But the journalistic thoughts were that most academics felt unable to comment, presumably because they are scared of being too political and endangering their jobs.

I always got the impression in Scotland that if you spoke out strongly about an unpopular political viewpoint eg conservatism, your career would be very much affected in all but a few fields. Hence I always felt that stifled feeling too, that I couldn't speak out on politics in an open way, the same as I do with my Dutch and Belgian friends (and indeed they do about the politics in their own countries).

Those of us in the RUK are surely more No than Yes, having chosen to live and work with people from the rest of the Union.

Yeah, combined with the 16 year olds, it really can be seen as manipulation.

Also, atm, there's no legal definition of Scottish.

Of course- huge obstacle to organisation. But there's no reason why you don't say, if you were born in Scotland or resident in Scotland for, say, 10 years in the last 30, you are entitled to a vote.

The 'problem of Scots abroad,' is only a problem because you have decided it is so...

Its pretty straightforward - if you are eligible to vote in Scotland, you are eligible to vote in the referendum.

Why on earth should someone in the US who was born in Scotland have a say in whether my country should be independent? And why should I be disenfranchised because I have only lived here 9 years? I work for NHS Scotland, my DP is a businessman, I have 3 children in school here?

And again

What about the people who have moved here from other countries? What about the academics, the medics, the business people who have settled here from all over the world?

Why are you unable to accept that the people who live in Scotland re perfectly capable of making this decision without the help of someone who last lived here in the 1960's?

Why on earth should someone in the US who was born in Scotland have a say in whether my country should be independent?

Your country? Are you making the rules? They could very well argue it's their country. Patriotism is an odd beast.

And why should I be disenfranchised because I have only lived here 9 years?

My suggestions were in addition to people currently entitled to vote, sorry I didn't make that clear.

Why are you unable to accept that the people who live in Scotland are perfectly capable of making this decision without the help of someone who last lived here in the 1960's?

I suggested the past 30 years, taking us to the 80s, actually People have different reasons for leaving, it doesn't take away their 'Scottish-ness'. Geographical location is just luck, after all.

I'm not sure that it makes sense to automatically strip people in Scotland of their UK passports as Theresa May suggests

If Scotland becomes a separate country, people living there should have to decide whether they want to be Scottish citizens or not. Scottish citizen -> Scottish passport. UK citizen -> UK passport.

There's no reason why foreign countries (like Scotland would be) should have UK passports for its citizens. If you want to be independent you must BE independent, not pick and choose which bits of the UK you want to keep.

Re the alleged difficulties of definition and organisation, it would be easy to extrapolate a definition of Scottishness for Scots abroad from the UK definition of 'Britishness' for the purpose of UK elections. Organisation could be as for UK voting and probably requires a postal system.

Re the claim that the vote will be on the basis of votes in Scotland, I don't think that is true. The rules on who is allowed to vote seem to be different for UK, Holyrood and local government elections. The UK eligibility rules might be more inclusive of Scots abroad, e.g. the 15 year rule mentioned earlier by It'sAllGoing. It's not a case of you or them and I cannot see why you think that it is.

Ubik,

Who is trying to disenfranchise you? No-one here as far as I can see. This part of the debate is about Scots abroad not people in Scotland.As to it only being a problem if we define it as such, you seem to think that there would be a problem if you were excluded so I'm sure that you can see that the same problem applies to other Scots who have moved for work.

The second concern for me is that we are missing their input. Don't you agree that people gain different perspectives from living in different countries? Don't ou agree that different perspectives are valuable when trying to understand complex issues and make difficult decisions?

Humpday, I couldn't agree more.

Sallying,

It's difficult to see how a vote in a referendum could legally strip a UK citizen of his or her UK passport. Are you suggesting that English, Welsh and NI people resident in Scotland would automatically lose their UK passports too because they are regarded as Scottish, i.e. they can vote in the referendum? I don't think it's as simple as you and Theresa May are suggesting.

Yanbu wanting to keep your uk passport.

Uncertainty is something we face being part of the UK - illegal wars, deregulation of the banks and the banking crisis? Rising fuel bills, living costs up 25% in the last five years. Falling wages, zero hours contracts, the bedroom tax, workfare, the choice between red Tories (Labour), blue Tories (Conservative), yellow Tories (LibDem).

Scotland has no influence over the Westminster government, the facts are out there if you want to read about them. The mainstream media is against independence, so it is hard to read/hear balanced debate.

short video worth watching whatever your stance on independence.

I haven't met many no voters, local shop in my small town has an English ex-serviceman owner - he is voting yes, as are many Scottish voters that I know that are not Scottish born.

I am voting for my children's future, for democracy and to end paying for trident& the replacement and to end being involved in illegal wars. The Yes campaign has many political parties involved, Green, SSP, Labour for Independence, etc, and then a lot of ordinary people not aligned to any political party.

Vote No to continue Tory rule in Scotland? Vote No to keep nuclear weapons based beside our largest populated cities? Vote No to pay for HS2 - which won't come anywhere near Scotland? Vote No to keep the Bedroom Tax which has hit poor families in Scotland very badly, Vote No to see the Tories take us out of Europe? Vote No so the millionaires in cabinet can claim expenses for their second homes and expenses for their fuel bills whilst ordinary voters die of the cold?

Yes I would rather have the "uncertainty" of independence, to the iniquity that Westminster deals out.

Scotland is not "too poor, too wee or too stupid " to be a successful independent country. Anyone who is interested can find out more at 5 million questions, newsnet Scotland, bellacaledonia, the Jimmy Reid foundation, national collective, Wings over Scotland and even the Yes Scotland website.

I obviously will be voting Yes. Scotland voted Yes in 1979 too.

Ah, Humpday, that IFS "report" cannot be taken seriously. If an indy Scotland continued to follow Tory austerity policies; really, what are the chances of that? It's one massive #ProjectFear piece of shit, and entirely speculative, based on bugger-all.

EachieOchie,

Are any of the sites you refer to is an independent source of information?
I'm a Herald reader and I've seen them move towards the YES cause.
I'm waiting for the academic discussion and Q&A.

I voted For in 1979 too, but that was for devolution, not independence.

EachieOchie why should what an English serviceman who runs a local shop in your village influence me or be of any concern to me? He is an individual, it is up to him how he votes. (why do independence supporters always do this - pluck a random example of an English person who will be voting in favour of independence, as if it is highly significant and will make others see the folly of their ways).

Why are you telling me to watch propaganda videos and read biased sources? Why do independence supporters constantly do this? Does anyone ever obey them, trot off, read said sources dutifully and then agree with them?

Why do you say Scotland has no influence over the UK government, and refer to it as "Westminster" instead of the UK or British Government? If anything, Scotland has too much influence over English affairs - cf the West Lothian question and Scottish voting patterns.

What do you think of groupthink and how it influences the independence debate?

ps you missed the bit about creating the shiny new society of greater equality for all in a new socialist eutopia (or something like that).

None of those sites are "independent", they're heavily yes-orientated. However, they do give a different view from the one you'll get from msm. Eg, the indy rally in Edinburgh, which attracted 20-30,000 people, was reported on msm using police figures of 8300. The police later agreed that 20k was more realistic a number, but did we see that explained on the Beeb? The whole thing got about 2 minutes of coverage!

I agree the Herald is "coming round" and of course Ian Bell and Iain McWhirter are always worth the cover price, but the Sunday Herald is more balanced/yes friendly, depending on pov.

Actually, Derek Bateman is pretty good. Ex-BBC journo and not yet as sus of them as other commentators.

In the interests of fairness, I looked at the "short video" - I remembered I had seen it before. It really is one of the most annoying pieces of clichéd propaganda I have ever seen - it is clearly aimed at the lowest common denominator, since the "flashcard" imagery is surely going to alienate anyone with much power to think for themselves.

I had a look at the Jimmy Reid Foundation, especially the lecture "We are not Rats: The role of Workers and Trade Unions in Politics". Here are some sample paragraphs:

"I’m only sorry – and I could not come to Scotland without making this point – that the debate arose out of disgraceful attacks by the right-wing on my union and its activists in Falkirk"

"Some of you may know that Unite has recently launched an ambitious community membership programme, aiming to extend our union family to those who, for one reason or another, are not in employment. As part of this initiative, we have opened a centre in Cable Street in London’s East End, a historic location where workers of all faiths and of none united to defeat the Daily Mail’s Mosley Blackshirts in the 1930s"

"Property has always seen democracy as its enemy"

Was I not meant to look at that bit?