To ask you what to do because I can't cope with DD any more?

[Helpmydaughterisanightmare]

Name changed for this.

I have a DD, 30 months. She has always been what would charitably be described as "high needs" but now she is just becoming unmanageable.

She has never slept through the night. On a good night, she might be up once and then provided she is given milk, she might go back to sleep. On a bad night, she can be up 3/4/5/6/7 times.

Last night, she woke up at 1am. I gave her some milk, which she drank. She then decided she wanted me to sleep in her room (for context - I never do this!). I told her I wasn't going to, because I was tired, and needed to go to bed. She then screamed/tantrummed from 1.30am - 3.30am. There was literally nothing I could do to placate her so after checking she didn't have a temperature, didn't have a wet/dirty nappy, and didn't need any more milk, I left her to it, checking regularly to make sure she was ok, and putting her back in her bed.

At 3.30am the neighbours banged on the wall

I took her downstairs and she continued to scream hysterically, not sure why, but presumably because I wasn't sitting in her room with her. Eventually she calmed down and I took her back upstairs and put her in bed. She chatted to herself for a bit and then went to sleep.

This morning she woke up at 7am, miserable and cross. She then had a further tantrum of epic proportions, screaming and crying, refusing to get dressed.

In the end (after 45 minutes of trying to get her clothes on, her kicking, screaming and ripping them off) I had to go out to pick something up from the shops, so had to force her into the pushchair, in her pyjamas, sockless, shoeless and coatless. She screamed for a further 45 minutes. People were staring at us in the street.

I have been in tears twice today because I just can't cope with this any more. I have an older child too and it isn't fair on him, and I am failing at work because I am so tired I can't cope with that either. It is causing friction between me and DH.

She is supposed to have been referred to the behaviour clinic but no one has been in touch. I called them this morning and they said they would call me back - they haven't. I am so desperate and I don't know how I can get help.

Oh love, this sounds hard. My 10 month old doesn't sleep, and I'm shattered but hopeful we're turning a corner. If she was 30 months (my son is, too!), I'd use phenergan.

Judge away! But as a short term, ie a couple of nights, to reset her, even my Gp had said it can be excellent.

Re the clothes - one day she's not with you - however that's achieved, pack away everything she can't currently wear in the way she wants to wear it. If that means no t shirts at all until it's warmer, so be it. Then when it comes to dressing I the morning there's nothing you won't feel she can't wear.

My ds of the same age responds well to having a choice of two things I've picked.

It's a lovely, and at the same time shitty, age. Nothing but sympathy here.

I wish I had something helpful to suggest but all I can add is if I had seen you with a screaming, improperly dressed toddler in the buggy I would only be thinking that I know that well. Hope things improve.

Poor poor you.

I'm sure you've thought of this, but would you consider changing her childcare? From what you've said she doesn't sound very settled there and maybe a new environment would help?

Would you consider a childminder or care within your home?

You've been given such great advice already. I have a tantrum prone DS and I find picking my battles, endless cuddles and staying calm and chirpy work best although that's not usually always possible of course!

I also find that DS is much much worse when we are having stressful/challenging times eg new baby, house move, problems at work, illness, bereavement, money worries etc. Not sure if this will ring a bell for you at all but just in case it does... I find it's when he feels things are out of control and so he wants to control the things he has power over- like food, sleep, and his behaviour in general.

I had a great piece of advice from a friend as my ds hit this age "think about whether this is a battle you think you might still be fighting in 10 years time. If it is, then it's important enough to stand your ground. If it's not, you can compromise". So, for e.g the malt loaf. That won't be an issue in 10 years time. She'll either cut it herself or have the skills to negotiate having the slice she wants. For me a 'standing my ground' was proper tooth brushing. And that we battled royally over (I held his nose one night so he had to open his mouth. Not hard, but enough). Clothes? Let her learn as others have said. I used the validate approach with ds as well and it helped me which I think helped him. We turned a corner after one epic epic tantrum over dinner. He sat and RAGED on the time out step for 45 minutes. Then it stopped. He came back to the table and, very matter of factly, "oh, sorry about that. I feel better now' and got on and ate. Sometimes he still rages and as I still have to work to manage myself and my temper I feel for him. I used to physically hang onto him, sometimes horizontally so he could only pummel rather than hurt, sometimes lying on the bed. Once that rage kicks it it's a scary and lonely place.

I also think she'll be reading your tension about flash points. Do you listen to the radio at home? Radio 4 or 6 has saved me so many times! It gives me something else to tune into so I can sort of float above the situation and stay calm. Tbh I'm dreading dd getting to this stage as at 11 mths she's already pretty independent!!

Oh and distract, remove, distract. The other thing said to me that was fab was 'think like a cbeebies presenter!' -ie plaster a happy face and a smile and see if you can jolly her along sometimes. And don't hold grudges. If she's had a tantrum in the morning, find a way to let go of your response to that so you can start again. I find it helps me to think in hour units on tough days - so I can think "that was a shit hour but here's a new one starting. Off we go!" Ds and I have also now reached a point of being able to say "shall we start again with a cuddle and see where we get to"

Good luck though-it's exhausting. But you will get there. And give your ds cuddles, make time for him. She's ok with your Dh in the day then take time with your ds then.

I'm sorry, I've not read the whole thread, but with regards to the sleep issues-my friend who works with children gave me a great method called "disappearing bed" which takes three nights. My DS has always had issues with sleep but this has worked well for us. I slept on the floor next to his bed on the first night, then moved to his doorway (half in his room and half out) on the second night and on the third night I slept with only my feet visible to him. I slept terribly those three nights due to being on the floor, but he rarely needs me in the night now and also stays in his own bed until his GroClock says he can get up.
I really hope you can all get some rest.

Another thing we were told that was a huge help was to change our view. So instead of viewing it as a discipline, teaching moment etc we were advised to view the child with compassion. That her fears at that time are huge and dominate her completely. So for example, the desire to wear only one thing - it comforts them (who knows why?), it is a tiny bit of control that they can have on their own person and life which is, in actual fact, completely out of their control. (Think about that, when they eat, bed, wear, child care etc.) this will not solve any problems for you but might help relieve the pressure a bit, and the worry that she will be like that for life. When she is a little older and more rational you can then worry about discipline. It is truly horrible though OP so no matter what road you take, I wish you well.

Mspickle is talking good sense.

sympathies... I think it's harder when your second is like this as you have some 'normal' parenting strategies but a child like this needs a bit more (ifykwim?). DS was like this (my 1st actually). I got so close to asking for a CAHMS referral as I had convinced myself that things were never going to change, but gradually they did! I'm lucky (I'm mental health professional so could tap into some expert resources), but even then it was bloody hard work implementing the strategies and I longed for an easier time of it. Things that helped

1. Be boringly and rigidly consistent with the boundaries (whatever you choose them to be). Eg: I'm going to ask nicely three times, if you don't give it back after the third time of asking nicely then I will have to take it away. Apply the same consistent pattern to everything.
2. Decide what's really important, pick three things and let those be the ones that you really work on. So for example ours where, no hitting, no kicking, no biting . They were an absolute no (but nonetheless happened frequently) and resulted in an instant sanction (in our case time out- which can be good as it's instant and gives you both space from each other).
3. No sugar, no e numbers or associated junk did (and still does) send ds loopy.
4. Loads of exercise and I mean loads...
5. Distraction when appropriate
6. Natural consequences where at all possible- saves everything being a bloody battle. So let her wear the T-shirt, when she gets cold she can ask for her jumper, if she won't put on shoes fine let her start to walk down the road without them. She'll soon ask for them. We only had to do this a few times with Ds. Effectively we handed back control to him on the things that we could. I know people will look, but tbh screw them. Unless you've had a child as relentlessly exhausting then you can judge all you bloody like.
7. Time out for yourself. It's stressful, get regular breaks (I was rubbish at this bit and ended up getting quite miserable and not liking being with ds, which was no good for either of us)

The sleep thing is hellish. For me I would start tackling the tantrum aspect. DD would have full on tantrums at 3.00 am. In the end I made sure that she was ok, told her it was ok to wake up, and that I would tuck her in again, but that it was not ok to tantrum, if she did I would ignore her. I followed through with this and we (and the poor neighbours had 5 days of hell) then she finally got the picture that the tantrums were not going to work. BUT, you have to be prepared to not give in... if you give in ever on this, (say on night 3) then all she will have learnt is that she has to keep tantruming because eventually you'll give in. Don't start this approach if you don't think you can see it through. If you can get rid of night time tantrums then you can begin to work on sleep through rewarding staying in bed etc...

Huge hugs, I how how bloody exhausting it it

Yes, good post MsPickle.

I agree with those who say 'give in' and 'pick your battles'. In my case (though my DD wasnt quite as extreme as yours sounds) my only red lines were about safety issues; and getting out of the door if we had to be somewhere.

As some have already said, overtiredness may be adding to the tantrums and moodiness. I've found 'healthy sleep habits, happy child' by Marc Weissbluth to be a very good, pragmatic book on children's sleep.

My DD had terrible tantrums at that age, including at night. Small and unpredictable things could set her off, like if I tried to help her in some way (do up a buckle on her shoe, get the peas onto the fork). These things still annoy her but it's ask much better now she's 3.1 - you may find too that it gets better with time. I recommend the TV as a distraction technique! Sometimes it was the only thing that could help my DD get back in control.

I find that sleeping with my DD sometimes has not led to any habit formation. I only do it if she wakes up repeatedly, which she does occasionally, and it helps both of us get back to sleep.

Toddlers are hard!!!!

She is just tired. Let her sleep in your room, on a mattress on the floor if you don't want to share your bed.

Dh and I have done every kind of room/bed shuffling imaginable, to allow us all to get maximum sleep at different times in the children's lives.

At one stage ds (aged 1) was in a cot in the room he was supposed to be sharing with dd, dd was on a mattress on the floor in our room, and I was in the spare room.

It didn't last long.

When ds was about 3 he needed to sleep with me for half the night. So I had him in the big bed with me from about 2am onwards, dh in the spare room, dd sleeping peacefully in her bunk bed.

Just make whatever adaptations you can to all get more sleep as a matter of urgency!

Delurked just for this because I know exactly where you are coming from.

My DS is now nearly 4 and in the last 2 months has turned into a reasonable lovely child who complies with most requests and is generally a delight to be with when handled the right way.

From 13 months till 3 3/4s he was the child from hell. Stubborn, strong willed, massive temper, no control over his emotions, very clingy and emotionally dependent on me and largely none sleeping. At his worse at 2 1/2 and again at 3 1/2 he was tantruming for up to 5 hours a day - the slightest thing would set it off and he would be unable to get past the moment he lost his temper for up to an hour at a time. Whole days went past with him throwing a strop from the moment he woke up. I've lost count of the number of tantrums in public and I am largely immune to other people now. Sometimes it took 30 mins to get him into his car seat because he was kicking and fighting me so much. 3 times he passed out in the middle of tantrums because his brain basically shut down and he had to sleep.

I would do whatever you need to to get though it with your sanity intact. I've learnt that sometimes I need to back down too and that a more co-operative approach works much better with my child. He really is a sweet little boy but there is a side to him that takes careful management and people who haven't had a child with this kind of personality just don't get that you can't just tell them to do something unless you want every single thing to become a battle.

Just to add I have found now DS is a bit older that telling him it's fine to be angry, grumpy etc and giving him ways to deal with feeling this way is really helping. He gets emotionally overwhelmed and needs his own space a lot so we encourage him to go to his room for a breather or to let it out in a scream but then move on from it.

He also started sleeping much better from 3.4 and I think this has made a huge difference too. I still sit with him most nights as he falls asleep as he generally sleeps more soundly then.

www.amazon.co.uk/Raising-Your-Spirited-Child-Perceptive/dp/0060923288

Might be worth a read. For what it's worth I have a "spirited" child. She is 6 now and still pushes my buttons like no one else but the tantrums have lessened.

I tried to give lots of choices (probably too many) and we let her into our bed in the night until 3. She now sleeps 12 hours straight.

Don't worry too much about the getting dressed. Just take a jumper/coat along and offer it a couple of times. Your DD will know you have it and will let you know if she's cold.

If occasionally she won't get dressed for bed, then just let her go to bed in the clothes she has on. This stage will pass.

just read your thread and running but just to say that you could just let her wear what she wants and take a coat out with you. I used to do this with mine. Then you carry the coat and say 'do you want your coat on now' loudly every so often so people knew the child had one.

'spirited' is a great book!

Also 'how to talk' book and the fab bonnie Harris - www.bonnieharris.com

She is awesome. Read her web site.

Brantingham and oven have covered what I wanted to say.

When she is going well, give her lots of positive praise.

I sleep in the girls beds when they are having bad patches. They always start on their own, but if they shout in the night they know I will come and sleep with them. I am quite lucky because I am a heavy sleeper, and get back to sleep quickly.

DD1 was a terrible sleeper - she was also very violent with her sister, but she is 5 now, and people don't believe me when I tell them what she was like, she is sweet and loving.

I have to say I don't think Nursery are helping you at all. You are trying to be a strict parent, and they are being over-indulgent. There needs to be a middle ground, where you both behave in the same way. This may mean you changing some things (including your childcare provider)

Ds is not a good sleeper - I am on a mattress in his room and he sleeps ok with me there - will eventually work on extracting myself but keep having setbacks like illness which means he wants me closer. He didn't sleep through till 28 mths.

My DD was just like this. It was awful. And almost everyone i spoke to thought i was exaggerating. I wasn't and i really feel for you.

So, the things that helped me... (and you will need a few tactics that you use, not just one thing will fix this in my experience):

Toddler Taming book had a lot of useful practical tips

I used the Millpond sleep clinic to get her to sleep through the night. I did the gradual retreat method. Like you my Dd would scream and tantrum for hours and i knew that controlled crying would go on for weeks and i wouldn't be able to take it.

I picked my battles and food and clothing weren't them. If she ate and was clean and dressed then that was fine. I had bigger fish to fry.

I made sure she had a lot of snacks (she was incredibly awful when blood sugar was low), actually this helped a lot.

I also found that being very very loving with her made her calmer and easier for everyone to handle. This wasn't always easy as, to be honest sometimes i didn't like her. But it had a double effect of making her calmer and me like her more.

Explaining what was going to happen very clearly to her, for example, if we were going out i would tell her what we were doing, when and how it would go. I would do this a few times before it happened and then as it was happening.

She is now 8 and a lot of these this still help now, but she is what i would call normal now. And i didn't feel that when she was younger, i seriously thought she had some sort of serious behavioural issue. I did find the year between 3 and 4 the very worst though.

And most importantly v for you to know, my DD food get through it all and is lovely now. We still have issues but she had many friends is happy at school and is a sparky happy girl. And yours well be too.

We must read the same books

"When your Kids push your buttons" by Bonnie Harris is great.

food = did

well = will

You could be describing my daughter. It didn't really get better until she was in reception and started to enjoy being stretched at school. She was a bloody minded and determined little girl who as it turned out was also very clever.She needed little sleep and was just plain frustrated with life! She is now a solicitor and most of the time a delight. It is sooo hard to live through. I feel your pain and remember well my feelings of utter desperation. Hang on in there. Hopefully things will start to improve soon.

Aww poor you O.P. R.e your neighbours and people staring at you "Were or are their kids saints or something. xxxx

I would also like to say to you. It takes great strength courage and bravery to admit when you need help, so "well done you". I too have heard that challenging behavior is a sign of very high intellect. xxxx

Unfortunately every child responds to different things, and your daughter does sound particularly difficult...though ime be prepared for a gp to be dismissive of that.

Saying that it sounds like other people have said that tiredness may be the route of this. If you can crack that the rest may slowly fall into place. Cutting out the milk should be no.1 during the night. Ime this can have dramatic results in days, though again it may not work but is worth a bad week of trying given all weeks seem pretty tough for you at the mo.

As for the neighbours either speak to them or put a note through the door explaining, after that the issue is theirs.

Lastly, while you should never rule any option out and should almost methodically try out all suggested solutions one by one (if you do them at the same time you never know which worked!)...just be a little wary about the food allegies route.

Evidence shows that only a tiny tiny percentage of parents or children who think they have food allegies actually do. A bit like the old thing of sugar and kids becoming hyperactive...to the parent it seems real but actually it's not.

Don't rule it out, but personally I wouldn't make it your first port of call.

Good luck, like everyone else has said this will pass and you'll laugh about it one day.

Thinking back when DS was the same age zone, we had a daily "breakfast tantrum". He would explode for no particular reason and breakfast would be a huge drawn out screaming battle. I discovered the cause by acccident when I opened the cupboard door and he managed to get in before me and help himself. All those months of screaming and flailing (mainly, but not entirely from him ) because the answer was as simple as letting him do it himself and he wasn't able to tell me verbally.

When he does go into tantrum mode at home (and not when there's a pressure like leaving the house) we put him in his room and tell him to come down when he's calmed down. He normally makes a couple of attempts to come down too soon, and is put back with "you can come down when you are calm". He's the kind where attention feeds the tantrum and it burns out much quicker when he's on his own. He then gets praised for being calm, and tends to be quite receptive for hugs.

Tiredness definitely aggravates his tantrums and he gets less "rational" about them. They are easier than they were at 2-2 1/1 although that wasn't helped by me struggling with heavy pregnancy and adjusting to a new baby. He's different that he's not very articiulate for his age, but sometimes being articulate means that people can expect more from a child than they can easily process. Maybe simplifying things might help? (Think talking like a C Beebies presenter)

DS is also better at bedtime if he hasn't watched much TV beforehand.