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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

kids who do ks2 at state schools should have priority over prep school kids at 11+

269 replies

marmitecat · 10/11/2013 14:01

That would make grammar schools more attainable for poorer kids and those that can afford prep school don't need to take places away from normal families.

OP posts:
Retropear · 11/11/2013 20:53

Woo Sutton are saying the private kids are having an adverse impact on state kids.They are over tutoring in private schools and with tutors so average kids are taking places meant for bright state kids.

There are only so many places. An average kid taught and tutored in the 11+ syllabus by professionals in tiny private classes for months/ years during his school day will get better marks and thus have more of a chance of getting in than a bright state kid who doesn't get pushed and doesn't cover the syllabus at school let alone after with a tutor.

This is happening.

Worried3 · 11/11/2013 21:02

But retropear the places are not "meant" for bright state school kids. They are meant for the brightest children of any background.

I agree that tutored children with coaching may well do better than those of their non-coached counterparts. The solution to that is not to disadvantage the children of wealthier parents. The solution is to change the test- or improve the education available to children in state schools. Or both. Your argument treats the symptom, but makes no attempt to get at the root cause.

WooWooOwl · 11/11/2013 21:04

Retro, you keep taking about the Sutton report, but I asked you to link to it more than once and you didn't so I still haven't read it in full. From what I can see, Sutton is not recommending that system school pupils be given priority for grammar places anyway.

They suggest measures I would agree with, such as doing everything possible to limit the effect of tutoring, and making the grammar schools give all pupils 10 hours of preparation sessions leading up to the 11+.

Either way, they are only a think tank. I don't have to base my opinions around what they say.

We are close to going round in circles now, because I'm again feeling the need to say that private pupils that have achieved the same as state pupils are equally deserving of a place at a state school. They are still this country's children, and they are still entitled to an education.

Retropear · 11/11/2013 21:10

But I'm not so sure changing the test would work,doubts were mentioned in some article I read.Years ago the 11+ was held up as a reliable test.

On both the tutoring sites I can't afford both say if the exam changes they will make sure their clients are prepared.

I don't think adjusting places like they do with age but instead re state ie allocating state places first would disadvantage private kids as they're not excluded from anything- a state education is available for every single child in this country.

Retropear · 11/11/2013 21:13

You can Google it Woo,it's pretty recent.Can't link.As I said Sutton didn't op did and I agree.I think it is a reasonable suggestion- sorry.

WooWooOwl · 11/11/2013 21:24

I have googled but I keep wondering if I'm missing something because the report I can see is focused on children on FSMs, not state school children, and it just talks about the fact that there are many more children at grammar schools from the independent sector than there are from families on FSMs. Like that's a surprise to anyone!

scarletandblack · 11/11/2013 21:31

The grammar schools were first introduced to allow bright children from any background to access a free academic education. That is simply not the case any more.

In my day [ wizened face emoticon ] everyone took the 11+ in school. Practice papers were done in school, so the big business that is tutoring didn't exist. That was the great leveller - the state primaries were integral in the administration of the 11+.

Nowadays, where the grammars are often 'out on a limb' in a largely comprehensive system, state primaries have completely distanced themselves from the whole process, and do not see it as within their remit to prepare children for the exam. (Even 'good' state primary schools will not undertake to cover the entire KS2 syllabus by the beginning of year 6, which is what is necessary to stand a fighting chance in the 11+).

Into the void have come private schools teaching to the exam, and tutors plugging the gaps, thus rendering the Grammars pretty much the sole preserve of those who can afford to pay.

Retropear · 11/11/2013 21:33

Hmm I keeps cutting to various news articles.Yesterday or whenever it was I'm sure they had their own summary on there.

WooWooOwl · 11/11/2013 21:36

I don't think adjusting places like they do with age but instead re state ie allocating state places first would disadvantage private kids as they're not excluded from anything- a state education is available for every single child in this country.

You are contradicting yourself. You're saying that private kids aren't excluded as if you agree with that, but then say that you think they should be excluded.

It's one thing for children to be at a disadvantage because of the circumstances of their own parents and the lives their parents chose to bring them into. It's another thing entirely for the state that most of us pay for to actively disadvantage and discriminate against children.

Would you also be happy for all those families that you think we should discriminate against to have a massive reduction in their tax bill, what with them being disallowed equal access to state services?

If you think that children are currently getting places at grammar school that they don't deserve, which may be a fair point, can't you see that picking children for grammar school places based on their parents income would do exactly the same thing, except in a much bigger way?

Retropear · 11/11/2013 21:41

You're contradicting yourself.

You don't mind state kids being pushed out of grammar or expected to work harder but you do mind private kids being treated the same.

WooWooOwl · 11/11/2013 21:41

It was doing that to me when I looked yesterday Retro, but I managed to find it today!

Here

And it does actually have a suggestion about prioritising children, but only those on FSMs.

Schools could consider giving preference – as the new admissions code allows – to all pupils entitled to the pupil premium who reach a threshold on grammar entrance exams.

Tbh, that just makes my opinion of the credibility of the Sutton Trust go decidedly downhill.

Retropear · 11/11/2013 21:54

Oh well done,I gave up.

Yes what about those just over fsm or the squeezed lower middle?

They would be expected to reach a threshold but considering by 2 those in poverty are already behind I doubt many would so it wouldn't help many.

Retropear · 11/11/2013 21:55

Those other ideas were good.

WooWooOwl · 11/11/2013 22:04

It might help some, but it would seriously disadvantage others, and that's just wrong when it's directly within the states control. It would automatically make it even harder for the majority of state school children to get in.

perfectstorm · 11/11/2013 23:07

It's one thing for children to be at a disadvantage because of the circumstances of their own parents and the lives their parents chose to bring them into. It's another thing entirely for the state that most of us pay for to actively disadvantage and discriminate against children.

In your view. Another view would be that it actually doesn't matter where the discrimination comes from or what causes it - accident of birth or social engineering - what matters is trying to redress the imbalance a tiny, little, small bit. Because most kids on receipt of free school meals won't ever reach that minimum threshold, anyway, because it will need to be sufficiently high to ensure they do well enough to benefit from a place. Poverty is too tightly linked to low attainment.

Privately educated kids who don't get into grammar schools aren't, on the whole, thereby disadvantaged, because their parents can afford to continue to have them privately educated, or at worst privately coached in addition to state education at a decent school which family income could buy them into, via catchments. Their parents are being financially disadvantaged, by having to choose to pay all the way through... or go state from day one, of course. But let's not pretend the children will miss out: those missing out will be parents unable to access a private school secondary education at tax payer's expense, if they've demonstrated means and desire to offer their kids a private primary education at their own.

What is being complained about is, in effect, positive discrimination. But it depends how you view it. It's easy to argue for symmetrical equality - that everyone should have the same chance. But when it comes to kids and opportunity, that argument is disingenuous and automatically favours the privileged, because they have a massive head start. Arguably it's about as reasonable as saying track athletes should all start in a straight line, despite the fact that those closer inside to the bends run less far. Privileged kids have to run less far to get the same entrance scores than a very underprivileged one. I really can't see that trying to redress that - to acknowledge that a child from a very poor household attaining high academic standards, and doing so without heavy coaching, is likely to have more natural talent and potential than a child who has benefited from such - is unfair. Confused

WooWooOwl · 11/11/2013 23:29

Academic achievement isn't just about natural talent though. Natural talent can only do so much to compensate for a disrupted home life. If a child does have a disrupted home life, which can in no way be assumed just because of the pupil premium, then they are likely to struggle at grammar school anyway.

It takes motivation and the opportunity to focus as well as natural talent to do well in a very academic environment.

what matters is trying to redress the imbalance a tiny, little, small bit

The pupil premium is supposed to do that. And it does in well run primary schools.

Worried3 · 11/11/2013 23:34

Perfectstorm

"to acknowledge that a child from a very poor household attaining high academic standards, and doing so without heavy coaching, is likely to have more natural talent and potential than a child who has benefited from such - is unfair"

On the face of it, you seem to have a point. A child from a poor background attaining high academic standards is likely to be very bright- and motivated. Quite possibly more so than their peers, from whatever background.

However, you are making one massive assumption- you don't know that the child from the wealthier background is vastly less talented than the one from the very poor household (and only achieved academically because of all the extra coaching).

It is perfectly possible that the wealthy pupil is either pretty average intellectually, but a good education has allowed him/her to maximise this (although I still think to get top grades would require some degree of intelligence and hard work on the individuals part).

It is also perfectly possible that the good education they have received has allowed them to maximise their natural talent and potential- which may be every bit as great as the child from the poor background.

It's lazy generalisations like this which annoy me. How would you have the bright children from a wealthy background "prove themselves worthy" of a place? After all, if they are bright and have a good education it is likely they will be getting top grades (I'm not just referring to grammar school entrance here, BTW). If a pupil is getting all A*'s, and therefore cannot obtain a higher grade- what more would you need this pupil to do to be considered equally?

I think if you had said that you felt that as the options for bright children from poor backgrounds were fewer, and that this is a reason for choosing this type of pupil over a more advantaged pupil, then I might not wholeheartedly agreed with you, but it would be more palatable. You imply that it's actually because, in reality, all privately educated children are not very bright (or at least not as bright as clever poor children)- it's just that they are well trained. I don't see how this is any worse than assuming all children from sink-estate schools or poor backgrounds should be rightly regarded as a bit thick, poorly behaved etc.

Worried3 · 11/11/2013 23:35

should be "any better than assuming" not "any worse" in last paragraph

perfectstorm · 12/11/2013 01:13

You're making a straw man argument there. I've not said that, and nor do I think it; I was responding to and quoting from a suggestion in the Sutton report, comparing the bottom end of kids qualifying for grammar school admission - the tail end - with the small number of children from very seriously deprived backgrounds who would be likely qualify via threshold, but who would otherwise not be so far below the more privileged. Those are the only ones who would be affected, and therefore my statement is perfectly accurate. Deprived and uncoached children achieving only slightly below very privileged and heavily coached ones have done better, when relative starting points are factored in (provided of course you believe the tests to be valid in assessment). Perhaps you might want to read what people say before, what was it - making lazy generalisations and massive assumptions? Wink

I'm actually privately educated: plenty of kids at my school were extremely bright, and really flew with the additional advantages such an education afforded them. Same thing at university, where a large number of students came from private schools (and there was a very active conversation about factoring in overall attainment at their schools of origin to assess quality of support in gaining the necessary A level grades - there was an understanding that the system was not fair as it stood, because a private education doesn't surgically remove conscience). I really don't need anyone to tell me that kids at private school are as varied and able as any others - just a damn sight more privileged. I'm fully aware. And I have never suggested that kids from private schools should be prevented from attending grammar schools, either. Others on this thread have, but not me. My points have solely related to addressing how very teachable the tests currently are which entrenches yet further the privilege of the privately educated/coached; that I think suggesting a threshold entry for kids from the very poorest backgrounds, rather than the ranked system applied to everyone else, is a good idea; and that arguing that privately educated kids would miss out educationally if denied grammar school places is fallacious. They wouldn't. That doesn't mean to say I think it would be fair, or should be done. Plenty of children at good state schools are only there because their parents can afford stratospheric house prices in that catchment and then sit happily on capital gains while benefitting from an excellent education, while some who can't afford to buy their way into a top comp, and faced with a sink school, send their kids privately by taking second jobs - each - borrowing, and scrimping every penny they can. Others are sent privately because they're horribly bullied and there isn't another option within the local state system. I don't think a state/private cutoff works, personally. But nor do I think it's true to say the children will be deprived - they won't, their parents will. Their parents have already demonstrated a fierce determination to ensure their kids will have the very best education they can possibly provide. It's a disingenuous way to appeal to sentiment, saying "think of the children!" when their parents are already doing that very thoroughly indeed. In reality, two groups are competing for additional benefit at state expense, and it's perfectly legitimate to argue as to how best to award that benefit.

Back to the main point: if the small number of kids from very poor backgrounds (admittedly the extent and persistence of that poverty is always a guess anyway, because some confounding factors might well be present - parental relationship breakdown suddenly affecting family income, or unexpected redundancy) are offered places ahead of kids from private schools, then the only kids to miss out will be those on the tail-end of the admitted places, because you'd need a fairly high qualifying threshold for the educational opportunities to be ones everyone could benefit from reasonably equally, so bluntly very few of the very poorest would gain admission even under those new rules, anyway. The nature of the ranked admissions system should mean that those kids at the very bottom end of the admissions cut-off are likely to be the intensively coached but average children (of course, that's always assuming you think the current tests are valid as an assessment of potential/intelligence, which I actually very much do not, but let's leave that for now) which means, yes, that a child from a deprived background has done better to reach that stage unassisted, and would probably benefit more from the place.

Honestly, I don't think anyone is listening to anyone else on this thread. It's a bunch of entrenched positions and easy targets. I think the exams should be adjusted so they're harder to coach for - nothing is uncoachable, but by the same token expecting coaching agencies to talk down what they could contribute under an amended system is turkeys and Christmas and positive changes could be made - and would allow the very bright to shine irrespective of coaching. I think the very poorest should have a lower threshold, but it would still need to be a very meaningful one to ensure the child in question didn't struggle. And there could be more done to seek out innate talent and weed out coaching, which actually is a bit unfair on the less able who can't keep up, as well as the more able who don't get in. That's all I've actually said.

I think there needs to be a discussion on how you level out educational opportunity in this country, and I think people should leave their pet prejudices aside if it's to be constructive - but none of us are capable of that. It's just human nature. So I think at least we could seek to tinker at the edges, as suggested above.

Academic achievement isn't just about natural talent though. Natural talent can only do so much to compensate for a disrupted home life. If a child does have a disrupted home life, which can in no way be assumed just because of the pupil premium, then they are likely to struggle at grammar school anyway.

It takes motivation and the opportunity to focus as well as natural talent to do well in a very academic environment.

It isn't about a "disrupted home life" if you read the report I linked to - the assumption you refer to there isn't mine but your own. There's a straightforward, statistical link with poverty itself, even after you account for other factors. The pupil premium very much does track that. If you're seriously arguing that kids without coaching and from poor families, who are statistically likely to do far worse academically, haven't demonstrated their suitability for academic study as well as their "motivation and ability to focus" by passing a rigorous entrance test, without coaching, when almost every child they compete against has been intensively and expensively coached, then I'm afraid I don't think we have much more of interest to say to one another.

Retropear · 12/11/2013 06:28

Interesting points perfect but in reality those getting fsm are very few and those just above and above that will be the ones to lose out(fewer places so somebody has to),not those at the top from private schools being tutored on top.

Tutoring can improve results by 30%. If you're higher due to private education(state schools do not teach 11+ content until after the exam,if at all)that 30% will have a massive cashe.

Personally I think allocating state places first is the way to go to rectify this as it is an option private parents can still access if they so wish(have changed my mind re an outright private ban)but agree we're going round in circles which I'm guilty of as much as everybody else.

DamnBamboo · 12/11/2013 06:37

YABVU.

My two boys go to our local state primary, small semi-rural school, high SES status families, small class sizes etct.. My husband and I have 8 degrees between us and I spend time (every day wihtout fail - mabe one or two days off) going over literacy, spelling, times tables, maths etc...

My boy is one of the most advantaged you there is - so how do you account for that?

Of yes, of course you can't....

Retropear · 12/11/2013 06:40

Considering how many private kids compared to state get in by putting state first(they'd still have to get through a threshold) would mean there would still be many places left which would go to only the very best private applicants thus giving the truly deserving places.

Sutton were concerned in a piece I read that over tutoring at private school and by tutors were leading to kids getting in who shouldn't,who then struggle.

Surely if these private applicants have the bar raised amongst only them the truly deserving would be more likely to get a place.

DamnBamboo · 12/11/2013 06:40

Privately educated kids who don't get into grammar schools aren't, on the whole, thereby disadvantaged, because their parents can afford to continue to have them privately educated, or at worst privately coached in addition to state education at a decent school which family income could buy them into, via catchments

I think you are making a lot of assumptions here.

I don't disagree with the fact that the poorest children will suffer more, but surely more help during primary is needed to remedy this?!

Retropear · 12/11/2013 06:42

Damn many private families will have the same- with a private education on top which will buy advantages regardless of grammar places.

A state child is more deserving from a social mobility viewpoint.Sadly all the advantages you give will do diddly squat as regards social mobility.

DamnBamboo · 12/11/2013 06:48

Do diddly squat for who? I'm a little confused here. I'm simply saying that KS2 kids in state primaries aren't all the same. Our primary is not at all representative in terms of attainment when compared with most other and certainly very different when compared with the national average.