kids who do ks2 at state schools should have priority over prep school kids at 11+

[marmitecat]

That would make grammar schools more attainable for poorer kids and those that can afford prep school don't need to take places away from normal families.

Yes I am bitter. My kids have been let down nothing new.

I've recently seen several worthy kids not get in through no fault of their own.It's quite scary and tbh I'm starting to wonder if there is any point putting my dc through it.The numbers applying are rocketing as families want to save on fees.It's only going to get worse.

I have friends with kids in private schools getting 11+ prep at school,masses of tutoring on top.One friend told me her dd's entire class were using their tutor- then there is my dc at a crap primary with zero tutoring.Not really fair putting him through it.I haven't even let him see the school.

Tutoring your own knackered child after school isn't easy particularly when you are wading through treacle trying to shoehorn in stuff they should have done ages ago and would have done in an Outstanding or private school.

We are at the starting gates Retro.

There will not be a last minuet rush to shoe horn here.

I will be following progress from the get go.

I am now already.

My worry is I cannot cover the Maths and science side very well, nor grammer ( shite primary). Already she seems far more competent than me in Maths and works things out much more quickly.

Retro, maybe Grammer isnt the right thing for you or your Dc if its bringing too much un happiness and angst.

In my wider family there was much disgust about the 11+ and how some siblings got it and the others did not, and felt scarred for life, then some of then went the other way and did not push their DC to do it at all. People have gone on to lead wonderful colourful lives, but have been burdened still fifty + years on by not getting that 11+.

Are you in a fully selective area Retro?

No thankfully Woo.

Elf my DS goes on G&T courses for several things, I honestly think he'd be happier at grammar going by my comp experience.

He is year 5 so I'm not leaving it until the last minute.The essay worries the shit out of me.He has amazing Spag ability but I'm clueless re the format and how to mark it re ontent,then there is the maths.His primary just nowhere near covers the content or methods needed.He flies through VR but listening to what the tutors are doing with my friends with privately educated kids- it's scary.

They had record numbers do it this year,it's only going to get worse year on year.

I think doing it yourself was doable previously,not so sure now tbh.

I feel for you Retro. The year leading up to 11+ is not a pleasant one in areas where competition is high, especially when you know that a certain school is the right one for your child. My ds at GS is only year 9, so I still feel very thankful and relieved that its not us going through it on 11+ day each year.

You are clearly doing your best for your ds, and that's all anyone can ask of you.

It's the fact my best isn't good enough that hacks me off.That alongside the fact that 60 years on my ds has less chances than his dirt poor grandad who got into a top super selective a year early.

Social mobility my arse.John Major speaking a lot of sense today.

If we're going to have grammars, the best and fairest way to select students would be to ask every state primary school in the catchment area to nominate a handful of students they think would be best suited to this type of academic selective secondary schooling. I suppose that they could also admit a smaller number of bright children from private schools (proportionately, based on the percentage of local children in these schools).

Schools know which kids are really, really bright and would thrive in grammar.

This would cut out all the bollocks with tutoring, and would enable grammar schools to take in really disadvantaged children who have huge potential.

Anyone see any problem with this?

You don't know yet that your best isn't good enough.

I think the problem that needs to be focused on is that there aren't enough grammar school places for every child that would benefit from one.

I wouldn't want to be in a fully selective area, and I don't think separating the top 25% of children is a good thing at all. But for those of us that aim for a GS place in an area where roughly the top 5% of children get one, there should be enough places for all.

The work that parents like you and I put in isn't to get out child a pass. No doubt we wouldn't put ourselves or our children through it if we weren't fairly certain they could pass. It's about getting a high enough pass to get a place, which wouldn't be an issue if the pass mark was high and there were enough places for every child that passed.

I think more grammar places combined with improving all primary schools is the answer. Pushing some children to the front of the queue while forcing some to the back regardless of their ability is not the answer.

I think only taxpayers' children should attend schools. Especially grammar schools. This is only fair IMHO.

Noooo except I have twins(equal ability) but one oozes grammar material(confident,swotty etc). His twin is a mouse and got overlooked for years,'twas only last year that they started pushing him(after a lot of nagging by me)and they're both in near enough the same groups now.

Kids mature at different rates and often parents know their kids better.Often the kids that mature early,that are confident and vocal get picked for every thing and pushed more.Some kids will come into their own at secondary or at the latter end of primary.Teachers only have kids for a year and basically would be given the unenviable job of writing off potential candidates at the stroke of a pen.

The logistics re informing the parents of the chosen few would be unenviable and a nightmare.Could just imagine the fall out in the playground.

Agree re improving primary Woo big time.

My dad went to an amazing village primary(he still bangs on about). I have no doubt if he'd gone to my dc's school he wouldn't have gone.

If all state primaries prepped kids properly and gave private schools a run for their money there would be no need for his thread but until they do......

Mini, I think there is a lot of merit in that idea, but honestly, I don't think I would trust every school to make a good job of this. I've seen to many teachers have children they have soft spots for and children (and families) they don't particularly like.

I wouldn't want to trust my child's entire academic future to one or two teachers who may or may not be very good at their job.

What Woo just said- with bells on!

Retro

In your case, as you feel its soooo hopeless,

I would be meeting my local MP< putting everything you have said on here before them and ask them what they are going to do about your childs education.

That the primary school has failed your children, you have no money to compete with tutors, I would list all the things that you are trying to teach him now, that he was not taught at school as compared to your privately educated friends children and basically list all the differences and issues, and lay them at his door.

EXPLAIN why you want your DC to have a fair and equal chance of the Grammer and why the other school you feel wont be beneficial to them.

Put it all in a letter in writing, and request a clinic with them.

At the moment I have enough on my hands with prepping for the 11+ and really if all parents who felt like me (11+ or not) across the land did what you suggest the queue would be down the road.Being hacked off with your kids primary is hardly big news.You just get on with it.

I disagree.

All the time you have been on here for instance you could be composing an email and sending it off.

The state has a duty of care to us, and its clearly failing you.

Who best to complain about this too, than someone who is in a better position to do something than lots of people on MN.

Not everyone does complain and there are no queues down the road.

Maybe thats the problem Retro. Maybe there should be?

Don't fancy that mini. The schools often recognise the loudest/most confident/clever kids and give them extra attention. Quieter (but equally able) ones get overlooked. There were a few surprises last year (at the school my children attend) when certain people got their grammar school place despite not being loud/know it alls. And they're managing very well at grammar school now.

Perhaps your quiet son will be one of these children Retro. I'm surprised to see your children haven't even started at secondary yet. You write as if they've already been failed at primary level and gone to the 'wrong' school. It might all work out for them perfectly.

Retro you've turned your attention to 'outstanding' state schools as well now. Do you think children who attend such schools should be held back from grammar places as well as those in private schools?

In the school I went to (a grammar) out of the 100 girls who joined 7 were state educated at primary level.

So considering that it's been mentioned 7% of primary school children attend private schools how is it fair only 7% of grammar school places go to state school children? That's not what the schools were designed for.

The schools are to educate the less well off to a high standard to mimic the opportunities afforded to private school pupils.

Entry to private pupils should be restricted to, say, 10% of the year group

I really don't envy you Retro, and I wish you and your sons all the luck on the world for the 11+.

It must be so hard doing it with twins. My two are two years apart, and we didn't put the younger one in for the 11+. His academic ability is only slightly less than his brothers, but the GS environment wouldn't have suited him, he didn't want to go there anyway, or do the extra work, and we are very lucky to have access to a good comp. plus it would have had more of a negative effect on him if he hadn't passed or got a place than it would have had on his brother, so GS just wasn't the best option for him. Even then though, I still worried that not opting in to the 11+ was going to be unfair on him.

This stuff is SO difficult.

Thank goodness they don't warn you about it when you are TTC!

Anyone doing DIY tutoring could do far worse than have a browse around www.elevenplusexams.co.uk. Some great support on there for 11+ prep, as regards both the nitty gritty (what books should I get, etc.) and the system in general.

Also, at a risk of outing myself here, the grammars in this county have now restricted the intake to a 15 mile radius to keep the schools local for local children.

There were numerous children being sent in from parts of London and herts - so not even from the LEA - which was deemed unfair and had to stop.

Woo won't be doing this with dd that's for sure,she doesn't want to do it although able and they have to want to do it themselves- a lot imvho.

Still not sure re the other two tbf. Not convinced re one anyway although he wants it.May well bale out with both.Putting them through a year of expectation with very little possibility in reality is rapidly starting to seem like a not very good idea.

Glad it all worked out for your DS though.

"Don't fancy that mini. The schools often recognise the loudest/most confident/clever kids and give them extra attention"

Schools would receive explicit guidance on how to do this. It would involve a panel of teachers and there would have to be evidence supporting the nomination - so IQ tests could be included, and a portfolio of work. Obviously children who would cope in a grammar environment would have to be achieving very highly at key stage 3. They could use a child's levels over the whole course of key stage 2 as a guide, so wouldn't be relying on anecdotal evidence from just one teacher.

Or it could be done by internal testing - like the 11+, but school by school in the catchment area for the grammar, with each school sending a proportionate number of their cleverest children. So you wouldn't be pitching state school pupils against private school pupils, or pupils at a state school in an affluent area against state schools in deprived areas.

It wouldn't put a stop to tutoring, but it would level the playing field a lot, and encourage pushy middle-class parents to consider the less popular schools.

"Obviously children who would cope in a grammar environment would have to be achieving very highly at key stage 3"

I mean Key Stage 2.

At the moment schools are selectively entering children for level 6 SATS. They could choose their grammar nominees from this cohort.

"I think more grammar places combined with improving all primary schools is the answer"

No it's not. Because in a system where there is widespread selection and a polarized system, the rich and the privileged parents will ALWAYS find a way to enable them to advantage their children above others. That's why in most areas where there are excellent state comprehensives which achieve fantastic results, there is still a thriving market for private schooling and selective state schooling. Parents who have money or the wherewithal to organize it WILL try to push their children ahead of other children. They'll also try and morally justify it by saying that the state sector is inadequate and that their children deserve better.

Middle-class parents in this country by and large want to separate their children off from the oiks. They want a polarized system. As long as their children are on the right pole.

They do NOT want a meritocracy if they are capable of buying better chances for their children.