kids who do ks2 at state schools should have priority over prep school kids at 11+

[marmitecat]

That would make grammar schools more attainable for poorer kids and those that can afford prep school don't need to take places away from normal families.

Minifingers - wrong. I don't want a polarized system. I want a system where EQUAL opportunities are afforded to all.

But when the state system would have made my daughter very unhappy, I don't apologise for removing her.

"Minifingers - wrong. I don't want a polarized system. I want a system where EQUAL opportunities are afforded to all."

The Finnish school system is one of the best in the world. It is fully comprehensive up to the age of 16.

As long as money and social/educational nouse can buy you a private school/grammar school/church school place, or a house in the catchment area of a hugely popular school, we will NEVER have equal opportunities.

Because the system we've created has inequality built in to it. It results in all the most difficult to educate children being educated in the same institutions, which makes those places incredibly difficult places to teach and learn.

And as long as parents support this system by supporting selection then it will continue.

Fleta my dd is very unhappy but private is out of the question.

Mini that would be a shed load of extra work for teachers and given how low the more able are re priority anyway I can't see it working.

Also what about the schools that don't get good KS 2 results,do those kids miss out then and just those in schools getting good results benefit?Ie the kids stuck in shitty primaries miss out twice.

Minifingers, such system will push even more parents to try and find money to pay for a prep school where every child will get the same level of preparation and does not have to be the "chosen" one. Also, what about the home educated children? Who is going to "nominate" them?

"Mini that would be a shed load of extra work for teachers and given how low the more able are re priority anyway I can't see it working."

No - not much more work.

Identify what children are being entered for level 6 SATS.

Ask parents if they want these children to sit an 11+ type test at school.

Done.

It's the work of a weekend.

"Also, what about the home educated children? Who is going to "nominate" them?"

Grammar schools could directly select a number of HE children proportionate to the number being home educated in their area.

I still don't understand how a grammar school could approach a selection of HE children? They are not allowed to interview and a HE child won't have a proven history of his previous achievements such as CAT/SATs scores.

But if the school have routinely not pushed kids,rely on parents to make up the shortfall,focus on other groups and consequently have few getting level 6 many are going to miss out. As I said the kids in descent primaries will benefit- again.

Given that a lot of the level 6 work would be done after the 11+ anyway and kids need a year to prep(many may make amazing progress in that year) relying on level 6 would be unworkable.

You'd get loads of parents demanding their kids sit level 6.Also given how little our school knows two of my dc sorry I wouldn't trust them re choosing anything for my dc let alone their next school.

Agree with Retropear. I had a (brief) experience of a state primary with DC1, and I won't trust his teacher's judgement. DS was in bottom sets for all subjects in his outstanding state school. I pulled him out and transferred him to a prep, he is at a grammar school now and doing very well. All his siblings are at the prep and I won't contemplate a state primary unless there is a drastic change in our finances.

Access to grammar schools is means-tested.

A similar house in Altrincham costs about £100k more than 1 in Knutsford ie 4 bed detached.

Altrincham has grammar schools.

Knutford has a comp that is used for the grammar school kids that are asked to leave.

Ultimately I think our grammar schools should be catering for our most academic pupils, regardless of where they come from. I think the tests need to be much less coachable. So they need to be changed every year, they need to measure IQ not experience and they need to assess a child's potential for learning. Independent senior schools are already testing like this, it is computerised and easy to run.
The reason I am pro grammar schools is because if a child is good at sport, gets in to the county team it is celebrated, if they are good at music it is celebrated so if they are academic they should have the chance to excel.

What part of our education system do you think should be cut back in order to divert funding to private school parents?

How do you measure IQ though?

It would save a lot of angst but can't think of anything kids couldn't be coached for.

I agree Minifingers - the thing is, you have a vicious circle - who wants their child to be the experiment?

We fell into the private system by accident. We wouldn't leave it now. If something happens meaning we couldn't afford it then I would home school.

I think the suggestion by the OP is not fair and not workable. But I do share similar concerns... esp as I live in Kent where the whole education system is selective.

The 11+ and GS is unfair.

The very fact of pass or fail a load of kids aged about 10 based on a one off test that has no resits.
The part played by those from independent prep schools is small to irrelevant.
Those same kids who went to a paid for school would probably have passed with the same results if they had been at state school.

There is research that does show tutoring for the 11+ does raise the result by a few points - but it is not going to move an average ability child into the accademic elite. As as far as I know almost all kids who pass are tutored in some way. Even if at home by parents. Realistically, children need that kind of self motivation, home environment and parental support if they are to stay in GS. My son is in our local GS and there is such a huge difference in expectations compared to what I see of the local so called "outstanding" comp.

BTW in my area (Ramsgate) ALL children who pass 11+ will get a place at our two local GS and if they get high marks they can be considered for a number of others.

I also have twins at a state primary school it is too early to think about extra tuition for them but I will do what I can to do them best for them. But The best is not necessarily private or GS.

Fleta I'm considering that for dd although in all honesty I suspect we'd kill each other in the process, the only thing holding me back atm.

Retropear

Have you thought of trying for a bursary at a private school if not successful with grammar (assuming you would even consider this route)? or for your DD, who you say is very unhappy.

My DD is at a private prep school- she started on a bursary. I couldn't have afforded the full fees, but the bursary made it possible (although still a bit of a struggle). In the case of your DSs- perhaps a combination of scholarship and bursary? I know a number of senior schools in our area do this for bright kids whose parents still couldn't afford the fees even with a bursary. In some cases this has led to 100% of fees covered, in other cases 80-90%.

Something to consider, perhaps.

When DS just started at the grammar, we had an open day for the new kids and their parents. There was a Chinese boy in very scruffy clothes, his parents hardly spoken any English and the head teacher said he is the first boy in the past 15 years who got into grammar from a very rough school. I think where is the will there is a way. A lot of people moan about 11+ and how the system discriminates against them, yet many foreigners from poor background manage to get their kids into top schools all over the country.

I mean from a certain rough school...

I do think background should be taken into account. Not just primary school versus prep school. But families on a low income will not be able to afford any kind of tuition for 11 plus exams. The children from low income families who pass the ll plus, currently have to be more intelligent than those who get tutoring for the 11 plus exam.

Knutford has a comp that is used for the grammar school kids that are asked to leave.

There is a child at my son's comp who was "asked to leave" a Trafford grammar school. I do wonder how the school managed to persuade him to leave as I thought it was extremely difficult to exclude a child these days. There was no problem with his behaviour - just academic performance.

I wonder if this is a new problem or that for decades it has been the case?

Maybe I agree where there is a will there is a way.

Having parents who are interested in education and want you to learn and provide a happy safe home back ground for you to do that, In my book already put lots of children out in front whatever school you are in.

I just do not get this sitting round moaning, going round in circles but taking no real pro active steps to change or do anything. Wanting someone else to sort out the problems for you.

My DF came from a "rough" working class background, and his parents had no interest in education at all.

I think he had one teacher at primary school who saw something in him and encouraged him to do the 11+.

When the results came through his parents hid them from him and did not want him to go to the grammer as they did not care nor understand it or the point of it. He was supposed to leave school, and get working to make money to bring into the home.

Elf, this is horrible! Hope things turned out fine in the end and your dad managed to complete his education.

Devora. Private school parents are paying for state schools via taxes and then not taking the places. Without them the state sector would not cope with the extra children but no extra cash. This has been well publicised.

Private school parents are paying for state schools via taxes and then not taking the places
The state are training the teachers and the private schools are getting the benefit

The same is true of childless people, no? That is hoe general taxation works. Presumably most parents who pay for private education do so as an investment with anticipated returns. I don't see why they should get the returns AND the investment refunded.