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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

kids who do ks2 at state schools should have priority over prep school kids at 11+

269 replies

marmitecat · 10/11/2013 14:01

That would make grammar schools more attainable for poorer kids and those that can afford prep school don't need to take places away from normal families.

OP posts:
DamnBamboo · 12/11/2013 06:49

whom

WooWooOwl · 12/11/2013 08:23

Kids that recieve the pupil premium aren't all the same either.

FSM is a very very blunt tool to use to ascertain which children are living in poverty, and I'd say that many children who recieve it aren't in poverty. They really aren't. Therefore the majority of them do not deserve easier access to grammar school any more than any other state school children.

There are plenty of circumstances that don't attract the pupil premium that can affect a child's educational outcomes, how do you measure those? What about the children who recieve pupil premium at the same time as receiving more than adequate maintenance payments from a non resident parent?

I think giving PP children a lower pass mark would create all sorts of problems. People would artificially keep their income low, I know I wouldn't have bothered going back to work after having children if it was going to actively disadvantage my children's education.

intitgrand · 12/11/2013 08:59

' I'd say that many children who recieve it aren't in poverty. They really aren't'

on what are you basing this?

perfectstorm · 12/11/2013 20:44

Firstly this may be incoherent - long day, DS ill so little sleep, and heavily pregnant! Apologies in advance.

Retro, simply saying "state educated" doesn't seem reasonable to me, for reasons stated. But affording wider access opportunities to poorer kids, who are still attaining well enough (overall, there are 500 places in the county at grammars, and you can select several choices, so the just under 2000 who apply have a 1 in 4 shot of a place at a grammar. You don't have to be a genius) would be a big improvement. They do actually offer a threshold preference ranking system for pupil premium applicants to the top performing grammar now, I've found out today after checking the website for updated info, but the threshold isn't that much below the normal entry, which IMO for kids that low-income could be extended without serious academic impact. And I think that the preference ranking system could be expanded, say to those with parents in receipt of Working Tax Credits, or with a household income below £20,000 instead of the current £16,000. The Rowntree report says that even small increases above the poverty line have measurable impact on performance, so it would be interesting to see if that extension increased the uptake of places by poorer children? It would also be good to see schools have a pupil premium bonus perhaps if they got entitled kids to perform really well in the 11+. Though I think extending the early years interventions throughout primary would be the best way forward. The thing I find most frustrating about the annual politicians' manufactured outrage over Oxbridge admissions is that they're attacking people dealing with the education system's own failings. By the time a kid is 18, you're largely dealing with the educational level they present with. At primary level you can still make worthwhile interventions to raise standards.

The test is very hard to perform well in unless very familiar with the format - so you have an arms race, in which parents who want their kids to have any sort of a shot find the money to get them tutored to the point they can answer in their sleep. (When I say privately tutored, I don't necessarily mean privately educated, I mean private tuition aimed at teaching to that specific test. A prep school that didn't prepare for it could be as wonderful as you like in genuinely academic terms; the kids would still do relatively poorly at the 11+.) That's one of the reasons I think altering the test needs to be imperative. All test outcomes can be improved by good tuition, but to varying degrees. The ones they use at the moment genuinely shocked me, because getting stellar marks so obviously relies upon highly teachable techniques. That should change if social mobility/equity is at all a concern. It's basically setting up a system where you need to know what extras to provide and then have the means to provide them to have a really good chance of success, which for access to state-funded educational opportunity isn't really acceptable.

I think the assumption that making a simple state/private division will prevent privilege weighting the scales is also very misplaced. I honestly don't see why my son should be ahead of anyone in the race for grammar schools, even though he's in the maintained sector. He's not remotely deprived; in actual fact he's getting every bit as good an education as most prep schools could dish out, between home and his Outstanding state primary. If reducing social inequality is the aim, then helping children from the very poorest families is surely the way forward - not giving upper-middle class kids in the state system a head start over their private school peers. I do think if your aim is genuinely to widen access, then state/private is far too broad a brush. 93% of the population are state educated. It is just unreasonable to treat that number as an amorphous group - if you want to boost the chances of bright kids from underprivileged backgrounds, which I applaud, then you need to at least try to identify who they might be, and "state educated" alone isn't going to do that. Privilege is not just about whether education is in the independent or the maintained sector, and I don't see why privileged kids in excellent state primaries should not themselves have to step aside, so a few more kids from really deprived backgrounds had at least a shot at it. I'm not that fussed about kids with very involved, engaged and educated parents - kids with lots of cultural capital. They'll thrive wherever they go. I'm a lot more bothered about kids who start the academic race with their feet tied together. Given poverty alone has been clearly shown to do that, then it seems a pretty good place to start widening access.

Damn I honestly don't understand the point you're trying to make? Blush (I've had almost no sleep - DS isn't well). My point is that kids who apply to grammar from prep schools either have parents who can afford to continue educating them privately, or who have amply proven that they're willing to make huge sacrifices for their children's education. I wasn't arguing that state schools with comprehensive intakes are bad, in fact I said in an earlier post that we've decided not to apply to the local grammar at all, despite being pretty sure we could coach DS in, because I'd rather he went to the very, very good state comp near us. I'd rather he went through primary without that level of anxiety on his shoulders - can't see how 2 years of tuition for an exam 90% of kids fail at the tender age of 11 can be ideal for any of them, and nor is the atmosphere in a school that pressured for entry likely to be healthy for many, perhaps even most, kids. I do though very much agree with your point that 11 is way too old to start worrying about equality of educational opportunity. I think interventions need to be made a great deal earlier and a great deal more concertedly. It was one of the things that always bugged me about political outrage over Oxbridge admissions - there is an extent to which Oxbridge pick up the pieces of educational policy, and they can't socially engineer that much when faced with half the qualified kids coming from 7% of the schools. The politicans love that target, because it's the very first point in the system where access/equality of opportunity is out of their hands! It's just too late. I do think extending preschool provision to 2 year olds, if good enough quality, would be a great idea, as well as targeting extra support at infants level. (No idea to what extent that's already happening - perhaps a teacher on MN could talk about that?)

I'd say that many children who recieve it aren't in poverty. They really aren't.

Household income has to be below £16,000 a year to qualify for FSM, or you need to be in receipt of means-tested benefits such as Income Support. The national average wage is £26,000 a year - they live below the poverty line. If you think someone with a child on 16k isn't poor, and that jobless people on benefits aren't poor, then I really don't know what to say to you. Confused You're flying in the face of all the statistics and all the data with that statement - both in terms of relative poverty, and outcomes for the children themselves. People getting FSM for their kids are poor, unless they're fraudsters.

perfectstorm · 12/11/2013 20:48

What about the children who recieve pupil premium at the same time as receiving more than adequate maintenance payments from a non resident parent?

That would be fraud.

AuntieUrsula · 12/11/2013 22:41

Surely if you ban private school kids from taking the 11+, what will happen is that those parents will send their kids to state schools and then tutor them through it? After all, the poor but bright kids will still be competing against those same privileged kids, no matter where the latter go to school. I think the huge demand for grammar school places is an indication that we actually need more grammar schools. There's none near us.

The local independent secondary school does not release its past entrance papers because it says it does not want pupils to be coached for it - 50% of their intake is from the state sector and they want as level a playing field as possible so they get the kids with the best learning potential. Grammar schools also need an entrance exam that is as hard to coach for as possible.

And surely not all private school kids are average and over-tutored. Some of them are quite bright.

candycoatedwaterdrops · 13/11/2013 08:04

Surely if you ban private school kids from taking the 11+, what will happen is that those parents will send their kids to state schools and then tutor them through it? After all, the poor but bright kids will still be competing against those same privileged kids, no matter where the latter go to school. I think the huge demand for grammar school places is an indication that we actually need more grammar schools. There's none near us.

I agree with this. There are no grammar schools near us either. Pushing private educated children to back to the queue is not equality. Not all bright state educated children will get an opportunity to go the grammar schools purely because of their parents' choice of home. Confused The only advantaged children will be those lucky enough to live in commuting distance of a grammar, so for those who think that would be fair, think again. (I bet those in support of this live in commuting distance of a grammar!)

WooWooOwl · 13/11/2013 08:15

Intitgrand - I base it on my experience of families I know who receive FSMs.

Perfect - it would not be fraud. It's completely legal, because maintenance payments are not considered at all for eligibility for benefits.

aciddrops · 13/11/2013 11:33

*What about the children who recieve pupil premium at the same time as receiving more than adequate maintenance payments from a non resident parent?

That would be fraud.*

Actually, no it wouldn't. Maintenance is not taken into account when applying for benefits.

aciddrops · 13/11/2013 11:34

Sorry, just noticed previous post.

perfectstorm · 13/11/2013 15:52

Perfect - it would not be fraud. It's completely legal, because maintenance payments are not considered at all for eligibility for benefits.

They aren't counted where working person's benefits are concerned - but you aren't entitled to free school meals if you work unless household income is below £16k a year. If maintenance doesn't lift a family above that threshold then they're poor.

Maintenance is considered when calculating out-of-work benefits. That was the primary reason for the Child Support Act, in fact.

Always useful, facts.

perfectstorm · 13/11/2013 15:57

Surely if you ban private school kids from taking the 11+, what will happen is that those parents will send their kids to state schools and then tutor them through it? After all, the poor but bright kids will still be competing against those same privileged kids, no matter where the latter go to school. I think the huge demand for grammar school places is an indication that we actually need more grammar schools. There's none near us.

A poster below pointed out that families who would send their kids privately are ones that care a lot about their kids' education, and as such tend to be very involved in PTAs and in supplementing educational opportunities. So it's certainly arguable that state schools would benefit from this, too.

I think making the tests far harder to coach for, and refusing to provide past papers or to allow kids to remove them when they left the examination hall, would be a best first option, together with an income threshold higher than 16k as a queue-jumping mechanism, though. Because treating 93% of kids as all equally privileged or otherwise makes no sense to me.

charleybarley · 13/11/2013 16:04

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

WooWooOwl · 13/11/2013 16:10

You're right, facts are useful.

If you're not working and your household income is less than just over £16k, you are entitled to child tax credits, which will bring your income over £16k. You would still be entitled to free school meals and maintenance payments are not taken into account.

Proof

Proof

Housing benefit and council tax reduction are also available to people both in and out of work, and child maintenance payments are disregarded for these benefits too.

Proof

Fleta · 13/11/2013 16:35

And surely not all private school kids are average and over-tutored. Some of them are quite bright.

This is my daughter except she isn't "quite bright" - she's outstanding. Across the board. And I do admit that I would have concerns as to how this would be addressed in the state system

Retropear · 13/11/2013 16:39

But perfect what about somebody on £17 k?

As I said the places for the under £16 would come from the lowest end(those who can't afford private or a tutor) not the richest end.

I hate the constant Tory empty gesture of help for anybody on fsm only.It's the same with uni help etc.

They know full well it doesn't actually do much,makes them look like they care about social mobility and the less well off(they don't) and keeps the lower squeezed middle who they loathe at arms length and kept in check.

Retropear · 13/11/2013 16:41

Fleta loads of outstandingly bright state children have to get on with it and miss out on grammar places later on.

Retropear · 13/11/2013 16:45

If you can afford private primary at least somebody like you could send them to state primary and then private secondary after if they don't get a grammar place.

Most children not so privileged have to suck up state x 2 and no grammar as routine.They survive even though the loss of grammar places is incredibly unfair.

DamnBamboo · 13/11/2013 17:42

Perfect - the point I'm trying to make is my son should have no extra opportunity versus prep school kids, just simply because he is in state school. Given the quality of his school, the additional support and learning environment he is exposed to (and there will be plenty more like him) - he is not disadvantaged and so the blanket rule as in OP makes no sense.

Fleta · 13/11/2013 17:42

Retro - I'd be interested to see comparisons actually (that reads antagonistically, but I mean I genuinely would be) of children at a similar level to DD and how they get supported in the state system.

I don't understand the point of your second post - are you saying I should be sending private for secondary not for primary so as not to take someone else's place at grammar? No can do, I was simply not prepared to send DD to the school she was given.

Fleta · 13/11/2013 17:43

Not really sure of the point of the "somebody like you" - given you know nothing about my/our circumstances other than we're sending DD privately for primary at the moment

DamnBamboo · 13/11/2013 17:43

Sorry Perfect I answered the wrong question. Will go back and read your post and comment on that specifically

perfectstorm · 13/11/2013 17:48

Woo, I apologise; you're correct and the law changed in April 2010, so benefits aren't affected by child maintenance. Quite surprised by that as it was the driving aim behind the CSA in the first place (in fact originally, claimant parent cases queue-jumped the non-claimant as a result).

Having said that, given the cap on child maintenance, average earning levels in the country, and the fact that the income levels otherwise are very low, a family getting benefit and maintenance is still pretty likely to be poor. I suppose very high earners whose exes can claim additional sums through the Children Act might be coining it, but that will be a vanishingly small minority overall. It's a loophole for a few.

The problem is that I'm pretty sure there will be one or two such cases represented in the 0.8% FSM kids attending the top-ranked grammar near us, because family income and attainment are so closely linked and so the chances are such families will be statistically over-represented to the nth degree. It's an unfair advantage to those kids, so I'd agree a better measure would be to require full disclosure of all income, wherever originating and then set a threshold limit (and I'd set it higher than the benefits level ,too - a family can be poor and not entitled to much help at all). I can see why the government wanted to boost the life chances of kids from single parent homes, and to encourage NRP to pay, knowing the money would actually benefit their children. But if that were translated into a head start at grammar school admissions time, then the small minority who do well from the changes are likely to be over-represented that an alternative route needs to be found. The core principle though - that children from very low income homes deserve a boost at the admissions stage - is sound I think.

perfectstorm · 13/11/2013 17:51

DamnBamboo I completely agree; made the same point about my own child. He's at a state school, but it's Outstanding and both parents spend a lot of time encouraging him educationally, having been lucky enough to be well educated themselves. He's not remotely deprived and shouldn't really be able to jump the queue ahead of anyone. Though given I don't want him to apply to the grammar, and at 5 he's too small for it to be an issue anyway, it's easy for me to say. Grin

I do think there should be a boost for kids from poorer homes. I just don't think a state/private divide is the way to achieve that, because stacks of kids in state schools are very privileged.

Retropear · 13/11/2013 17:52

And those just over or in the middle who can't afford tuition,private,G&T courses,uni help- those kids can go hang whilst going even further down the 11+ pass list?So just the very rich and the poorest get places?Hmm

Fleta didn't mean "someone like you" nastily.Smile