kids who do ks2 at state schools should have priority over prep school kids at 11+

[marmitecat]

That would make grammar schools more attainable for poorer kids and those that can afford prep school don't need to take places away from normal families.

We have something like that in our area - a secondary academy (which does get very good results) has an entrance exam and takes 50% of its intake from those in the 5 poorest wards first before those in the rest of the wards (and now the same group has a primary in a ward just outside of the poorest 5 which is helping to boost results at those schools as well).

But if someone takes their child out of private primary and puts them in state primary, then all the money they save on school fees can be spent on tutors. How does that help?

The ONLY solution is that should not have grammar schools. Entry depends on the parents not just the children. Totally unfair and socially divisive.

Retropear, I can only go on my experience which is that less than 1 child per academic year at DS prep go to state grammar.
The entrance procedure is completely different. I'll have a look at the report though thanks.

As I said tutoring surely is less effective and solving some of the problem is better than doing nothing.

Fleta there will always be a state secondary alternative.

Sorry it would be perfectly workable,as it is as I understand it those in care quite rightly get pushed to the front of the queue with schools so it would just be an extension of that.

And if there are lots of people using private primaries mainly for this reason so they all want to go into state, where are the places for them?

But if someone takes their child out of private primary and puts them in state primary, then all the money they save on school fees can be spent on tutors. How does that help?

Thats right. And aside from this, if parents cant use the grammar system unless they use a state primary, then obviously they will be moving into the catchment of good state schools. Meaning there will be even less good state school places. As well as topping up with classes / tutoring out of school. Or setting up little free schools

You know what would happen Retro if this was the case? Children in prep who wanted to go to a state grammar would leave, go to state primary for the last two years and still get into the grammar.....

What you actually want is an education system that gives you what YOU want for YOUR child and broadly dressing it up as "this would make the education system so much better". Whereas we accepted that the education system couldn't give us what our daughter needed so we opted out.

In a state education system paid for by taxes, you cannot say to a proportion of the tax payer that they cannot send their child to "x" school. Unless you bring in tax reductions for people in this position.

Well put fleta.

how about state primaries offer tuition on non verbal reasoning etc? Regardless of if individual heads approve of the 11+ system if they are a feeder school they should offer classes and who attends them should be a joint decision with teachers and parents. I am a teacher and appreciate the extra work this would entail but it seems the only way to mitigate the advantage prep school kids would have via their school - though as others have said, there is never a truly level playing field because parents differ wildly in their level of input.

LOL Retro I think you have mistaken me for someone else.
"You have the choice between private and state.The majority have only the choice of state and many have no choice in that either,not being able to afford to buy their way through property into the best state schools either."

Private school for any offspring of mine will not be an option nor will buying property. I am in rented and will be for the foreseeable future, so try again! Me having bright and supportive parents has not meant I am super rich, just that I did well at school.

My dd is in a super selective all girls grammar. It is always in the top 10, usually in top 5. Begins with "k". She is the only girl in her form who came from a prep school. The others all came from state primaries. However, they all had significant amounts of tutoring.
This came out when a teacher asked in one of their lessons.
How would your idea improve this situation? My dd would be penalised, but not the others.

I agree with Fleta. I love these threads where you get certain parents with massive chips on their shoulders, proclaiming they want a fair education system, when they clearly only care about their children, fuck everyone else!

And no, I could never afford private for my children nor to buy property in a desirable place.

Don't be ridiculous! Equal access for all!

I pay a lot of tax too as does everybody,why should less wealthy children be excluded from a school because parents of kids who shouldn't be there and end up struggling buy up places.

Less wealthy children shouldn't be excluded, but not should the wealthy ones. It's not ok for any child to be excluded from having access to a state education.

If you want to even the playing field, as I'm sure most people would agree is a good idea, then make the private schools give after school sessions to state pupils. Or make primary schools cover VR and NVR and all KS2 work before Y5 for their brightest pupils.

But don't do something that actively penalises children because of a valid choice their parents made in the best interests of their own children.

Then make the private schools give after school sessions to state.

In theory good idea but a.) not all private schools are fantastic b.) who is going to fund this and c.) kids spent enough time in school as it is.

why not have more grammer schools, say to cover 30% of the schools in an area?

Has it occurred to ANYONE, that parents who can afford to pay for private prep schools, are usually well educated themselves (that's how they got the jobs that pay well enough for the private school fees). They are intelligent, and intelligence is a very heritable trait. So their children will (usually) be intelligent themselves, and therefore more likely to pass the 11+, which is (essentially) an intelligence test.

Along with them, passing that 11+, are the children from state education who are equally bright and well read.

To make it totally, equally fair, I'd be happier if the 11+ consisted of the Non-verbal reasoning test, plus a Maths paper, comprehension and a sample of writing. Then you're not discriminating based on how widely read one child is over another. Access to books with complex language, along with access to adults willing and able to help you understand the words used, isn't fair across the board, especially for children whose parents are not well educated themselves. The local library may contain those books, but someone needs to encourage the child to read them, and help them with new words.

Should be two different exams depending whether in state primary or prep school.

If not all private schools are fantastic (which I wholeheartedly agree with having been to a couple!) then there isn't as much to fear from then as some people seem to think. The private schools would cover the cost themselves as a requirement of the charity status they all have.

Kids do spend enough time in school as it is, but if a child is going to be worthy of a superselective grammar school place, then having to work at a high academic level for a couple of extra hours a week isn't much to ask of them. If a child can't cope with the extra work, then they probably won't cope with grammar school.

Fwiw, I don't believe that there are many children in SS's that don't deserve their place. They will have passed the exam well above the pass mark, and if they've had to put in extra work to achieve that then I don't have a problem with it. Working hard should have benefits.

I appreciate it might not be the same in grammars schools in fully selective areas where a much higher percentage of children go to grammar schools, which I assume the Sutton report took into account.

Retro - not one person I know in private education has put their child through the 11+ so in my part of the country these grammar places are not taken up by privately educated students. Independant schools don't take on the very bright, far from it despite the very dated opinion that they do, there is no more guarantee that those in private will get a place in grammar than those in state. Where you have the impression that the privately educated are buying their way into grammar somehow is not reality.

Whilst my daughter's school prepare them for the private secondary entrance exam (not 11+) it is still the parents that can help that process much the same as with those in state who want to try for grammar. There are 11+ test papers available online, in WH Smiths etc as well as examples of verbal reasoning - if you feel your child is capable of coping with Grammar you can simply and easily prepare them yourself - you don't need a £30 per hour tutor.

A lot of the grammar schools near here take a huge proportion of children from private prep schools and ,what's more ,many children who do not live in the county! IMO grammar schools are not cost effective and divisive. I would get rid of them tomorrow!

Should be two different exams depending whether in state primary or prep school.

It's as if equality never existed in the first place! Again, children who are born into families who are richer should not be punished or made to work harder. They no more ask for it than a child who isn't born into a rich family!

Forgot to add that I went to the local comp and although my spelling is pants I can still spell independent and grammar unlike some posters on this thread.

My experience of local indies was that those with age range up to 11 prepared for 11+. Those up to 13 prepared for CE.
DS1 was prepared for CE although he took a 13+ to a indie grammar with entry very similar to state grammars, it didn't use CE. All 3 DC went to indie secondaries on bursaries although we were on benefits and statistically deprived/poor.
A friends DS went from a indie prep to state grammar and although they were prepared he was very academic anyway. He spent the first year marking time while they concentrated on those who had been tutored solely to get into grammar but actually were nearer to average in terms of NC classwork. He ended up on a scholarship to a indie a year later after finding grammar frustrating.