kids who do ks2 at state schools should have priority over prep school kids at 11+

[marmitecat]

That would make grammar schools more attainable for poorer kids and those that can afford prep school don't need to take places away from normal families.

[BrianTheMole]

Forgot to add that I went to the local comp and although my spelling is pants I can still spell independent and grammar unlike some posters on this thread

Oh good, super, well done

[Amandaclarke]

Mushy, are you expecting a house point for your spelling abilities? I am not sure this is the place to receive one.....sorry

[Retropear]

Amanda your experience isn't the norm,as pointed out in Sutton.They are concerned parents are buying places via private primaries and the kids then struggle.Private primary is clearly an unfair advantage or they wouldn't voice concerns.Parents pay because it gives advantages so let's be honest.

Many grammars do ask for an essay,maths,VR and non VR.Kids at private primaries will undoubtedly have an advantage as they are not beholden to the NC.They don't even do a lot of the maths required in state until after the exam let alone do the sort of essay required or VR.

It's nothing about having a chip(what a weak argument),I have an education and there are kids far worse off than mine.It's not about wanting something that just suits my dc, every child is at liberty to go to a state primary thus excluding no one.

[candycoatedwaterdrops]

Retro No one is denying that the children may have an advantage but why should the children be penalised by having higher barriers to jump purely because their parents can afford private primary schooling?

[soul2000]

On You Tube there is a very relevant film about the Head of st Johns Catholic School in Gravesend speaking out about Grammar schools.

The film goes on to show that out of 150 admissions last year, Tonbridge Grammar gave 62 places to girls from prep schools.

The video is ( The Damage Grammar Schools do, a Head Teacher speaks out)

[Retropear]

Children are already being penalised for having higher barriers to jump because their parents can't afford private education.If private applicants were banned or were allocated places after state the simple answer would be to go state.What exactly is the problem?State primary schools are good enough for the majority soooooo.......

[candycoatedwaterdrops]

Retro What about people like me? State school child given huge amounts of support and extra education by her parents. What if I had applied to a grammar school, I would have had a huge advantage...? Would I have been made to take a different test?

[WooWooOwl]

Retro, may parents pay for private primary not to gain an advantage, but to avoid a disadvantage. So may people don't have a hope in hell of getting the good state primary place they are entitled to, because there are too many underachieving primaries.

You are right that many state primaries don't cover all the work that will be needed to do as well as possible in the 11+. But there is so much available to parents for free that I don't really think it's as big a barrier as you seem to believe.

And every child is at liberty to go to a state primary school which is a good thing. So it figures that every child should have equal access to state secondary schools as well.

[Retropear]

You can't legislate for everything,sure there are plenty of privately educated kids,tutored to death with supportive parents too(I know a couple).

Banning or putting state kids at the front of the queue would be piss easy to do, would be fairer and would help hugely.Grammar schools were supposed to be for state children.

[Mushypeasandchipstogo]

Amanda Please please please may I have a house point? Sorry if I offended anyone but why is it that posters who support Grammar and Independent schools are the ones who can't spell?

[candycoatedwaterdrops]

There are plenty of state educated kids,tutored to death with supportive parents too!

[BrianTheMole]

Well, i'm happy for that retro, as long as I don't have to pay towards it through my taxes. I'll take my cut back and put it towards private school. And you can have the grammar place. If your dc can compete against the middle class, tutored children that go to a good state school that is. Or will you start figuring out how to get rid of that group as well? And then any other privileged groups? Until all that is left is you....

[crunchybargalore]

On the tax issue I thought tax payers did pay for private schools in terms of where their teachers are trained and what about their pensions? Can someone please explain this?

[BrianTheMole]

Amanda Please please please may I have a house point? Sorry if I offended anyone but why is it that posters who support Grammar and Independent schools are the ones who can't spell?

I don't know. Why do you think that is?

[Retropear]

Well yes Woo and the vast maj can't afford to buy their way out and have to suck it up.

If buying a few books from Smiths is so easy why the need for tutors or private primaries at all?Are you saying it's neither here nor there where kids go to school and a few sessions of chanting tables with mummy will solve everything?

No thought not.

Kids are knackered after school,many parents work,many parents have zero time and are clueless.By far the best option for any child is to have him prepared for the [11+ properly and thoroughly in his school day by those who know what they are doing.

The fact that less clever kids who shouldn't even be at grammar are doing this,getting in in big numbers and then struggling speaks volumes.

[Retropear]

Nope Brian you can't legislate for tutoring but I guess you could adjust for school ranking,they do that for age so not impossible.

[SanityClause]

DD1 went to a private junior which didn't prepare at all for the 11+, as the school wanted them all to go to the senior part of the school, not move on elsewhere.

We did some work with her at home to familiarise her with the VR and NVR tests - as any state educated child's parents could do.

She had no advantage in the 11+ over a state educated child, and indeed, there are only 3 privately educated girls in her class at grammar. Of course, all the other girls are from leafy suburbs, and have had years of music lessons, dance lessons, sports classes and so on. But, as they were state educated, they obviously deserve their places more than my DD does.

[candycoatedwaterdrops]

If your dc can compete against the middle class, tutored children that go to a good state school that is. Or will you start figuring out how to get rid of that group as well? And then any other privileged groups? Until all that is left is you....

This is what these threads always boil down to.

The vitriol that underpins some of these posts just proves that it's not about educational inequality but perceived personal inequalities.

[WooWooOwl]

Banning or putting state kids at the front of the queue would be piss easy to do, would be fairer and would help hugely.Grammar schools were supposed to be for state children.

Just no, on so many levels!

It would not be fairer, it would just benefit the children you want it to. But those children are not more important or more entitled than any others.

What exactly would it help?

Grammar schools are there for children that are intelligent enough to benefit from that type of education. Not for children that come from a type of background that some deem to be more worthy.

I can understand your feelings, I would probably have said exactly the same on the day I dropped my ds off to take the 11+ to his very high achieving grammar school. He was there in his primary school polo shirt and sweat shirt surrounded be children in stripy blazers and boater hats.

But it would be so much better to provide grammar school places to all the children that achieve the high pass mark rather than let some children push others out of the queue not because of the extra work they have put in, but because of the school their parents chose when they were four.

[Snoopingforsoup]

Most people here are ignoring that grammar schools now have to be prepared for with tutoring.
If state schools provided preparation for state grammar, the wealthiest would still pay for extra tuition outside of school.
Whether people pay for independent school, or live in a verr nice area with a million quid house in a grammar catchment, until a grammar is actually plucking out the poor yet naturally bright kids along with the tutored average masses, they're not fit for purpose.
At least an independent school is honest and blatantly clear in why it exists and is not providing an exclusive education by stealth. Grammars are actually not fair.

[Retropear]

Woo you need to read the report.Yes grammar schools are there for children intelligent enough to benefit but many aren't at the moment as their parents have shoehorned them in by paying for private cramming schools and tutors and they then struggle.

Arguing against that isn't saying some backgrounds are more worthy,far from it.It's saying the right children are not getting into grammar schools so something needs to be done.The single most unfair thing parents choose is private education,this would be the easiest to legislate against.

And it's nothing to do with choice,how insulting.Parents don't choose to send their kids to shit primaries.

[WooWooOwl]

Ok, I will go and have a look at the report. I only paid a little attention to it when it was in the news.

But at the moment I don't believe, based on my experience of my child's grammar school that the wrong children are there. If there are a few children that don't deserve to be based on their intelligence, then they are in a very tiny minority and the blame lies with their parents for making the wrong choices for them. But those children could have come from either private or state and it wouldn't make much difference.

The fact that virtually all children come out of that school with As and A*'s makes me believe that all those children deserve a place there.

The fact that so many more children pass the exam than actually get a place makes me believe that all those children deserve a place there.

Like I said earlier, things may be different in fully selective areas where you have much more chance of getting your child into grammar school than you do in areas that only have the odd superselective.

[WooWooOwl]

Retro, do you have a link to the report please? I can only find the one that relates to pupils on FSM rather than all state school pupils, and I got directed to the FT which wants me to register.

[WooWooOwl]

From what I can see, the Sutton trust agrees with my earlier suggestion that all children should be offered test preparation lessons to level the playing field, although whereas I suggested private prep schools should do it, the Sutton report suggests the grammar schools themselves should do it.

I can't see anything that indicates they think that state school children should have a priority when it comes to allocations, and they talk more of the lack of children on FSMs at grammar schools than the lack of state school pupils.

Do you think that children on FSMs should be prioritised over other state school children as well?

[Amandaclarke]

Mushy - why is it that CEO's, CFO's and many people in leadership posts can't spell? errrmmmm perhaps because they have other skill sets. Are you basing education, achievement, success in life on spelling? If you are then I think you need to read a bit more, get out and experience life and get a job - that might bring you a little bit into reality and give you the gravitas to contribute to this thread.