To still feel disturbed about this nursery.

[MrsDrRanj]

This has been bugging me on and off for years, one of those things where I feel like I should 'do' something because it just doesn't settle in my mind well.

5 years ago, when I was 17, I got an apprenticeship at a nursery through a training course. I'd never had a job, hadn't finished school and was recovering from a breakdown so it was a big deal to me. I was naive and very nervous.

Things happened while I was there that now really bother me, especially as a parent who may have to find a nursery for ds one day.

There was an incident with 2 other apprentices having a shouting match infront of pre school children, including calling eachother 'slags' etc. they were not fired and parents were not informed.

The manager came into the room I worked in and loudly discussed the children's progress infront of them, including declaring that a little boys speech wasn't as it should be and she had suspicions he was colour blind (right infront of the little boy who was 3)

One man punished a preschool boy who suffered with constipation for having an accident by forcing him into a nappy that was too small for him. The boy was screaming and in the end there was poo everywhere including the little boys hair. Another member of staff came and shouted at him but nothing else was done. (I have recently read in the news that this man has now been convicted with voyeurism and possessing indecent images of children which made me go cold)

When I was invited on a work dinner out the leader of the preschool room spent a lot of the night doing impersonations of the children, including taking the piss out of a little girl for not understanding much when English was not her first language.

In general the nursery was badly managed, people were bitchy and mean, apprentices were left in charge when they shouldn't have been etc and thankfully I didn't stay there long. But it still bothers me. The nursery is still running and though there's a chance the staff may have moved on there could also be the same people working there.

The nursery had been rated 'outstanding' by ofsted and was part of a high end chain of nurseries. It has left me terrified of putting DS in nursery as id be devastated if any of the above situations involved my child. I feel awful for not doing anything at the time but I was so inexperienced.

Would you do something now? And if so what? I don't want it to bug me forever I just can't seem to shake it from my mind.

That's because there are studies that show that day care can offer better outcomes for children than being cared for at home for some sections of society.

Outcomes in what respect? Numeracy? Social? Are the outcomes short lived by any chance? Do the SAHM children catch up on these areas once they reach school? Are the so-called 'better outcomes' you speak of weighted against the worser outcomes?

Outcomes in what respect?

I'll have to put my uni head back on and find the studies.

They were long term studies and I think the outcomes were based on employment, involvement in the criminal justice system, etc as young adults. I will try to find some links later if you're interested.

My point is that the studies showed that children from certain socio-economic backgrounds benefited greatly from good quality Early Years care but it is often quoted to justify the view that all children are better off for it.

Are the so-called 'better outcomes' you speak of weighted against the worser outcomes?

Can you explain this a bit more? I'm not sure what you're asking.

I have never ever seen a thread where anyone claims that nursery offers the 'same level of care' as that at home, or indeed which even suggest that they are intended to provide the same experience.

I would consider myself a fairly typical parent who used nursery . My children started with a cm (they were a few months old when they started childcare) and then progressed to nursery, and the maximum they did until they reached school age was 3 days a week. That was fairly typical of the situation for most children at the nursery. The vast majority of parents used it part time. ( though having said that the minority of children who were full time seemed perfectly fine.) Nowadays with long maternity leave, it's even more rare to see young babies in nursery. However, where a parent does do something differently to how I did it, my first assumption would not be that it was 'wrong', but that that parent had weighed up everything about their own circumstances and made the decision which suited them best. Some parents are very against cm or nanny arrangements ( and who knows, there might be all sorts of reasons I don't know about from their past which means that they are wary of settings where a child is alone 1:1)

I think the important thing to recognise is that while there will inevitably be variation in quality of childcare (just as in every other kind of setting , schools , hospitals , families, ) loving and caring parents make decision based on their research and knowledge and experience of their own children. The way some people speak, you'd think parents just pick a nursery out of yellow pages, stick their child in it and pay no regard to how their child is responding.

I completely agree that we should always strive for high standards consistently, and that poor practice should be exposed. But tbh people who use childcare do spend a great deal of care and thought picking the best place for their child, not expecting it to be a replacement for the care at home, because that parent relationship is unique, but as a different experience alongside the primary care they receive from mum and dad.

I also think this is a thorny topic and some people have very polarised views and just don't like the idea of nursery full stop. It did strike me as a tad ironic though to read the threads a few weeks ago about financial help for childcare for working parents, when suddenly a number of SAHP were up in arms that they wouldn't qualify for the help too, and claimed that they felt their children might be disadvantaged by not getting as much time at nursery!

I think the whole debate about 'is nursery better' is a total red herring because for most families who care for their children appropriately, it's not a case of being 'better'. We're not looking for it to be better; we are looking for it to provide good quality childcare in a particular type of setting. And different parents will want different things: eg A child-led setting was very important to me, as was having quite a bit of outdoor time. For other parents, other aspects night be more important. Just as there isn't one 'right' way of parenting, there isn't a one size fits all 'right' childcare.

the studies you are thinking of could be the High/Scope project in the us, and the EPPE project in the Uk
highscope.org/Content.asp?ContentId=219
eppe.ioe.ac.uk/eppe/eppepdfs/TP10%20Research%20Brief.pdf

My point is that the studies showed that children from certain socio-economic backgrounds benefited greatly from good quality Early Years care

The important words here are "good quality", which most are not (see Oliver James who cites studies to this effect).

We're not looking for it to be better; we are looking for it to provide good quality childcare

Odds are that you're not going to find that in that particular form of setting.

Ooh you're scaring me now wombles! Most nursery settings aren't good quality eh? Is that from your own extensive nationwide research, or just from your reading of Oliver James? Personally Id be a tad wary of Oliver James.. He has some very dodgy ideas about women

Seriously though, those of us who use, or have used, nursery care, really do spend an awful lot of time researching and visiting and doing the instinctive day to day checking that our children are thriving- which presumably all good parents do whether they use nursery or not. Aside from anything else, nursery care is amongst the more expensive form of care, so it's unlikely something people will default to, to save a quick buck. Believe me, when you pay out your entire income on two nursery places as I did, you ain't gonna do it unless you know your children are getting a really good deal :)

There will always be some people who will never, ever use any form of childcare because they don't wish to. There is another group, I believe, who don't use it because they don't work and don't need it, and perhaps don't feel totally comfortable about parents who do work, and therefore feel more secure in their choice by undermining other people's.

But honestly- why not let's all strive towards ensuring all childcare is as good as it can be, and offers the range of experiences which parents want.

My CM charges £4ph which yes, is below NMW, however she can take three under three. All there 40hrs pw, so thats 160pw per child, or 480pw. Not bad at all!

Yes mortified- that's the point I made earlier. Our dc started off at a cm, and then nursery, but we returned to the same lovely cm for before/ after school care when my children reached school age. She had her own pre school child and childminding was a way that she could use her skills (ex primary teacher) while being at home with her child and then later on being able to do the school runs. There aren't many jobs where you can earn without paying childcare yourself, so in that respect it's the perfect job for someone with those skills

I'm weighing up cm vs breakfast club/after school for my older one at the moment.

The important words here are "good quality", which most are not (see Oliver James who cites studies to this effect).

I completely agree.

I am not saying it is right that the studies are used in this way.

it's unlikely something people will default to, to save a quick buck. Believe me, when you pay out your entire income on two nursery places as I did, you ain't gonna do it unless you know your children are getting a really good deal

One of the place I saw the worst practice and the most unpleasant attitude to children was a very expensive, beautifully resourced setting with an outstanding Ofsted rating and very well-spoken staff. I'm absolutely certain that the parents who were paying top dollar thought their children were thriving. They turned the charm on and off depending on whether parents were around.

It seems I'm far from alone in this experience.

why not let's all strive towards ensuring all childcare is as good as it can be

Maybe we need to acknowledge how deceptive outward appearances can be in order to do this.

the problem is that the default setting is now both parents working. At no point in their musings about what's right for the British economy and what's right for women/men, do the government consider what's right for children and what do the parents want, given the option?
I hear people cry "sexism" because returning to work is usually a decision made by the mother. But it's a result of women being the one to get pregnant, give birth and breast feed, taking extended maternity leave etc... until men can give birth and lactate, more women than men are going to want to stay at home and look after the kids.

usuallyright - I agree. It's a huge problem that staying home to raise children isn't valued by our government, and hugely ironic when you consider that they will be paying the price for maladjusted kids and depressed parents.

Ireally resent the implication that my having to go back to work will create a maladjusted kid. (I might be abit depressed at the thought though!)

having to go back

That's the problem.

Ireally resent the implication that my having to go back to work will create a maladjusted kid.

I agree. There's no need to tar all settings with the same brush. I've seen more good practice than bad. It's just that the bad is so damaging and the parents are oblivious to it.

It would be better for many children if the government supported SAHMs in the same way they subsidise childcare but some figures, somewhere, have been published about the benefit to the economy of both parents working so that is what they are striving for.

While we have the likes of Ms Truss pushing formal education on younger and younger children this is not going to get any better.

I've seen more good practice than bad.

Your limited (and potentially biased) experience does not correlate with the studies I'm afraid.

Maternity leave is now a year long, so frankly, the giving birth and lactating bit is irrelevant to working or not. Besides, even those of us who had much shorter maternity leaves often continued bf for ages after returning to work.

I think it's quite malicious scare mongering to try to suggest that having parents who work will result in maladjusted children. And also, lets be perfectly honest about it, if it really were costing the govt so much more in addressing the problems that those pesky working mums create, then frankly the govt would be chasing mums straight back into the kitchen! The fact is, there is absolutely no proof that children whose parents work are going to end up unachieving, unhappy maladjusted wrecks.

It always strikes me as quite interesting that those of us who have used childcare just get on with it without trying to make any great claims that its better for our children : like I said, it's just another part of their experience.

Yet this vocal minority of parents who dont work or use childcare are so desperately at pains to tell us how dreadful it is!!

If you've had your own bad experience with childcare then I'm very sorry for you. If you are one of the people who used to work in a childcare setting which tolerated poor practice then that speaks volumes. But please don't assume everyone else is in your situation. It begins to look a teensy bit desperate that you almost wish that were the case

links to said studies please

So what defines "bad practice" then? IF most nurserys fall into that category how would I know when viewing?

So what defines "bad practice" then? IF most nurserys fall into that category how would I know when viewing?

Just to be clear, I haven't said that they do at all.

You wouldn't know when viewing because poor practitioners generally know what they should be doing and do it very effectively when they have an audience.

I think to some people on this thread just being a nursery is bad practice.
When viewing nurseries look at the children
are they happy, do they look busy, is there lots to do?
how well are the practitioners interacting with the children? is there bonding, cuddling and laughing? are they lisening to the children?
does it look 'lived in', is there mess and stuff everywhere?
look at the practitioners
do they look happy, do they make eye contact with you and smile and say hello?
do they look busy, bored, indifferent?

links to said studies please

High Scope is the first that comes to mind.

I'm sure there are more but my notes are in the loft and I'm not prepared to face the Armageddon up there today

Janey, you sound very defensive and angry.
I've always believed that people who are both confident and happy in their decisions don't waste time defending or justifying them, especially not to strangers on t'interweb.