To still feel disturbed about this nursery.

[MrsDrRanj]

This has been bugging me on and off for years, one of those things where I feel like I should 'do' something because it just doesn't settle in my mind well.

5 years ago, when I was 17, I got an apprenticeship at a nursery through a training course. I'd never had a job, hadn't finished school and was recovering from a breakdown so it was a big deal to me. I was naive and very nervous.

Things happened while I was there that now really bother me, especially as a parent who may have to find a nursery for ds one day.

There was an incident with 2 other apprentices having a shouting match infront of pre school children, including calling eachother 'slags' etc. they were not fired and parents were not informed.

The manager came into the room I worked in and loudly discussed the children's progress infront of them, including declaring that a little boys speech wasn't as it should be and she had suspicions he was colour blind (right infront of the little boy who was 3)

One man punished a preschool boy who suffered with constipation for having an accident by forcing him into a nappy that was too small for him. The boy was screaming and in the end there was poo everywhere including the little boys hair. Another member of staff came and shouted at him but nothing else was done. (I have recently read in the news that this man has now been convicted with voyeurism and possessing indecent images of children which made me go cold)

When I was invited on a work dinner out the leader of the preschool room spent a lot of the night doing impersonations of the children, including taking the piss out of a little girl for not understanding much when English was not her first language.

In general the nursery was badly managed, people were bitchy and mean, apprentices were left in charge when they shouldn't have been etc and thankfully I didn't stay there long. But it still bothers me. The nursery is still running and though there's a chance the staff may have moved on there could also be the same people working there.

The nursery had been rated 'outstanding' by ofsted and was part of a high end chain of nurseries. It has left me terrified of putting DS in nursery as id be devastated if any of the above situations involved my child. I feel awful for not doing anything at the time but I was so inexperienced.

Would you do something now? And if so what? I don't want it to bug me forever I just can't seem to shake it from my mind.

Putting poorly paid workers with no sense of vocation in charge of vulnerable, non-verbal people in an institutional setting is probably never going to end well, as we're seeing with the series of scandals regarding care for the elderly . The thought of putting a pre-verbal child in institutional care scares the life out of me (luckily I have a choice - I realise many parents don't!)

.... Although of course childcare, particularly nurseries, are often so expensive (relative to earned wages) that actually many people using them do have a choice. Certainly a choice between nursery and childminder, and often the choice about how much they work. You have to be on a pretty decent wage to make nursery care worthwhile, so you're likely to shop around and have the choice of provision. The people I feel more sorry for are those who can't afford to give up work yet can't afford childcare and end up leaving their kids with unpaid relatives who frequently (judging by MN threads) don't do things the way mum and dad want.

I'm not denying there are some poor nurseries around (just as poor hospitals, schools and indeed all kinds of workplaces ) exist ..and I am truly shocked at the posters who worked in poor places and did nothing about it until years later.... But there are also bloody fantastic settings out there. The key is to look around a LOT, call in unannounced and trust your instincts... As the parents you know what is right for your child

Young staff are not a problem. They tend to give an originality and energy to a nursery. But it's best to have a blend of skills and abilities and ages.

We chose a nursery for my dd when she was 1, only two days a week but I think unless you know a childminder personally, I'd be wary. How do you know what they do all day? They could be sticking your child in front of the tv for most of it. Let alone anything else. They are alone with your child in their home. Maybe they spend the day hoovering etc and not paying much attention to your child. ( obviously, I'm being a bit ott) I think even though some nurseries are getting a bad press, I'd still choose one ( a good one) over a childminder purely for accountability. This is only my opinion mind you, not wanting to flame any other choices.

Oh Janey - I envy my friends who are able to leave DC with relatives - they are with someone they know loves them!

We can't afford for me not to take an opening that's being offered. By the time we've paid childcare I won't really have any income, but its the long game. I wish it were different. We can't look around a lot as there's only one local. I'm a teacher so I really CANT be off if a CM is sick/on holiday, and the CM I really liked who worked with her husband is booked until next Sept anyway.

I think the one I've seen will be "ok". But I can't see it being one I love.

I'msorry -when I looked at the research it indicated that a nanny/cm was better for under 3s. If I knew one personally I'd leap at the chance - but all the reasons you say make me wary of picking one I don't know.

This has been an interesting although somewhat scary thread.

I use a nursery for my 3 yo DS3 and have done for the others too from age 1. It is small, and meets the chipped paint and some older staff criteria. Overall I've been pretty happy with it - been using it for 8 years and known at least 4 of the staff for all that time.

I'm still pretty paranoid right now though, especially thinking about DS2 when he was a baby. He was so whiney at home, I wonder how they treated him at nursery.

alark I found your long post very thought provoking, especially about women (and men) being 'sold a pup' about career. I certainly was told that I could have an amazing career and a family and struggled when reality caught up with me.

With regard to reporting poor practice in any care setting, I think a lot of older people would find it very difficult to rock the boat in their place of employment, let alone 16/17 year olds, who have only just started work.

We all like to hope and think that we would do the right thing, but it sometimes takes a lot of guts to go out on a limb.

Oh my god. This thread has made me cry. I am resolved to drive a 10 mile round trip to a nursery i trust.

I agree that alark's post is thoughtful and thought-provoking. However, the one thing that makes me uneasy is that she focuses 100% on women. She talks of steering her daughters not sons towards jobs which can be done for one day a week. While people keep thinking and writing about this as a women's issue, it's missing the central point that this is about parents.

If you believe in widening flexible working opportunities then great, but it applies to men too. And I would hate to feel I was placing different expectations on my dd to my ds. Quite apart from anything else, not everyone wants or can have children. Also, if we encourage our dds to enter careers with the expectation they will work a few hours fitting around their husbands job, the logical conclusion is that we should be encouraging our sons to see their role as having to have a full on full time career

Parenting and all the major decisions that are part of it, what childcare is used Etc are to do with both parents, and any hint that things default automatically to the woman is a retrograde step

My job involves me looking at standards so I know not to take notice of rating systems. I assess in adult care settings and I know that you've got to see past it.
I was looking for a nursery for my 3 year old and I did an I
Unannounced visit to look round. The nursery looked like a bomb had hit it and it wasn't the most modern or in the best repair. Was just about to run when I observed the children. They all looked so happy all joining in a game outside. I sent my son and he had a ball they were great at building his confidence and he did well there. My little girls have gone and settled straight away. It is a very happy place,

I think nurseries can be very good for children, but I think it's also really important for children to be with their parents for as long as possible before nursery. We had two children very close together (not planned that way!) and I simply couldn't afford to send them to a private nursery, so they both got places at a council one when they were three- not in the area we lived in, I travelled about 7 miles to ironically a more "deprived" area as my mum (who sadly died years ago) was head teacher there, and the new head was someone she knew and loved. There was also a threat of closure as they didn't have enough kids attending ironically! Anyway, the kids thrived and didn't want to leave, routine tantrums on way home, covered in paint, sand, clay, just fabulous so I was delighted. But these people were teachers- not carers, with sometimes next to no qualifications or interest in the job. This is what galls me- how do we pay child carers more? We raise prices, and make it an attractive job, a skilled job and one that can be a career. Under threes to me are so vulnerable as they can't report to their parent, so it's even more important.

One comment earlier in the thread said child care costs nearly half their salary already- by that standard I should go into a Prada shop and ask for a £5k bag for £2500 because I can't pay £5000. Or I won't. The government should definitely help parents who are working hard to ensure they still have a job to go back to after having children, and they should also have a good hard look at the qualifications needed to be a child carer- it shouldn't be a second class job, it should be a career choice, because that's when people who love their job shine.

Did you mean the part about not being trained? Does it take training to recognise inappropriate behaviour and to look into how to report it and to who?

Nope. I meant the rest of my post explaining some of the possible reasons why the people posting here now in their 30s/40s may not have felt able to report some 20 odd years ago when things were very different to how they are now.

Alark makes some great points. I stress to my DDs to get a great education etc so that they have a choice of whether to work etc after children. I never say any choice is better/right/wrong. In fact I have corrected them if they make comments judging one way or the other. I also stress they may not have a choice and you need a good education etc in case you end up on your own. I am a SAHM but there are lots of people they know that work f/t and p/t as well as some SAHDs.

there have been threads in the past where posters have actually argued that nurseries offer the same level of care as being at home with a parent. Which is rubbish, but some people actually believe that.

there have been threads in the past where posters have actually argued that nurseries offer the same level of care as being at home with a parent. Which is rubbish, but some people actually believe that.~

That's because there are studies that show that day care can offer better outcomes for children than being cared for at home for some sections of society.

You're probably comparing nursery with high quality care at home in which case there's no contest in my opinion.

If people are not well parented themselves, they do need high quality training. If you have had high quality parenting, then I think it is far easier to be a high quality childcare worker.

We have seen time and time and time again hideous atrocities being committed against vulnerable people.
Been reading the daily mail again, dear?
I have worked with children for over 20 years, in several settings and have never witnessed any 'hideous atrocities'.
There are systems in place in nurseries to protect the children.
I don't need monitoring to make sure I do my job properly.
Do you think that schools should have cctv so that parents can check on their children when they are at school too?
Or are teachers different?

Children services are well monitored to make sure that abuse is rare. That is not the case in adults services.

insan - I am not the poster you quoted but I did suggest cctv. children of school age are mostly able to speak to parents if someone is treating them badly, babies and young children are not able to. I have also never witnessed ' hideous atrocities' but have on many occasions witnessed staff not treating children as kindly as they should.

I don't need monitoring to make sure I do my job properly.

Nor does anybody else who is conscientious and cares about the children they look after.

How would you suggest parents ensure that their children aren't subjected to the kind of situations described in this thread if it isn't by using webcams or CCTV?

Hideous atrocities are very rare but I don't think children need to be protected only from this level of serious abuse. They have the right to be cared for in positive environments where they feel safe and secure.

I've seen enough myself, and I'm clearly far from alone, to know that not all practitioners are professional and positive in their interactions with children. When those children are not able to report back to their parents and any upset on arrival at the setting is put down to separation anxiety, is it acceptable for trust to be the mainstay of their safeguarding?

I don't know. I can imagine that working under the glare of CCTV all day every day would be difficult and I'd be worried about people misinterpreting what they saw, especially if there were no sound involved.

It's a difficult one.