To still feel disturbed about this nursery.

[MrsDrRanj]

This has been bugging me on and off for years, one of those things where I feel like I should 'do' something because it just doesn't settle in my mind well.

5 years ago, when I was 17, I got an apprenticeship at a nursery through a training course. I'd never had a job, hadn't finished school and was recovering from a breakdown so it was a big deal to me. I was naive and very nervous.

Things happened while I was there that now really bother me, especially as a parent who may have to find a nursery for ds one day.

There was an incident with 2 other apprentices having a shouting match infront of pre school children, including calling eachother 'slags' etc. they were not fired and parents were not informed.

The manager came into the room I worked in and loudly discussed the children's progress infront of them, including declaring that a little boys speech wasn't as it should be and she had suspicions he was colour blind (right infront of the little boy who was 3)

One man punished a preschool boy who suffered with constipation for having an accident by forcing him into a nappy that was too small for him. The boy was screaming and in the end there was poo everywhere including the little boys hair. Another member of staff came and shouted at him but nothing else was done. (I have recently read in the news that this man has now been convicted with voyeurism and possessing indecent images of children which made me go cold)

When I was invited on a work dinner out the leader of the preschool room spent a lot of the night doing impersonations of the children, including taking the piss out of a little girl for not understanding much when English was not her first language.

In general the nursery was badly managed, people were bitchy and mean, apprentices were left in charge when they shouldn't have been etc and thankfully I didn't stay there long. But it still bothers me. The nursery is still running and though there's a chance the staff may have moved on there could also be the same people working there.

The nursery had been rated 'outstanding' by ofsted and was part of a high end chain of nurseries. It has left me terrified of putting DS in nursery as id be devastated if any of the above situations involved my child. I feel awful for not doing anything at the time but I was so inexperienced.

Would you do something now? And if so what? I don't want it to bug me forever I just can't seem to shake it from my mind.

I am familiar to highscope, in fact I linked to it upthread
I was meaning womble's studies that prove there are more bad settings than good

Well I don't feel it usuallyright- but like I said, perhaps some people see what they want to see :)

Yes, that will be it, I expect :)

I think to some people on this thread just being a nursery is bad practice.

I hope you don't mean me. I wouldn't have been working in nurseries if I thought that.

I've seen the wood pulled over parents' eyes and inspectors' eyes and I've seen dramatic changes in behaviour when adults are around at the beginning and end of sessions. I've reported to Ofsted on more than one occasion and I've seen them come in, inspect and find nothing of concern when there would be plenty to worry about if they saw the real setting.

I've also seen and been a senior practitioner in excellent nurseries where the care has been the best it could be and the children are genuinely well cared for and happy.

I can tell you categorically that their Ofsted results and outward images were very similar and I would defy any parent to tell the difference from a visit.

I don't relish that fact and I wish I knew a way to solve this problem. It isn't a reflection on good practitioners. It's a reflection on a system which, IMO, doesn't adequately protect children.

no, not at all, goldmandra
but there are plenty of posters on this thread just in it for the nurserybashing
i know there are good nurseries and good practitioenrs out there, i've seen plenty of evidence myself having worked in them for well over 20 years
in fact, I have been in more good settings than bad

Goldmandra- We are all agreed that there are some poor nursery workers out there. As well as a lot of good and excellent ones. I think your mistake though is in assuming that parents are making judgements based on a few visits, where as you know from your own experience, poor places try to pull the wool over people's eyes. Perhaps you need to credit parents who use nurseries with the same intuition and care that you'd credit other parents... We know our own children, better than anyone else. We don't give a shiny about 'ofsted outstanding ' or 'research' which can (and does) variously 'prove' that nursery is bad/good

Insancerre you are right; sadly there are a few people on MN who just delight in bashing people who do something they don't do. Witness usually rights retort to me above: "yes, that will be it I expect" In reply to my comment that some people just see what they want to see. Clearly what she wants to tell me (but hasn't got the balls to spell out so tries her dark hints instead) is that my two teenagers are somehow damaged by their nursery experience. They can't possibly be the secure and happy individuals they are- she knows better... And of course, as their mum, I'm just being deluded by these well adjusted teens I live with!

Just wow. That anyone can even think like that.

oh dear.
I didn't say any of that; you did.
I didn't say anything even vaguely insinuating what you implied, so please don't put words in my mouth. It's lazy and inaccurate and could be a classic case of projection, but I won't say that cos I'm not a shrink.

oh and I've used daycare, both nursery and cm, so no axe to grind here..

I've had some other parents who've used the nursery tell me its ok, I really get on with the nursery manager (she's outdoorsy,play based learning type) but the actual carers in the room are young.

I will have visited twice. Next time I'll take my daughter. What should I know? They have outstanding ofsted and good outdoor space but . Know that's not the be all and end all. Ideologically I'd like to stay at home orhave a nanny. What else do I need to know? How else do I tell?

northern, kts impossible to tell.
I put our eldest in an outstanding nursery. It was only years later I got chatting to a woman who ran a baby yoga class and she'd worked there. The subject came up and she told me several horror stories about this 'outstanding' place. Obviously ofsted weren't going to see any of that.
In the end I used a childminder who was also a personal friend who had a similar parenting style to me, but she still did some things differently. I bit my tongue. You can't be in total control when you hand your school over. And I got used to it in the end. I still use a cm, but I'm only do about 8/10 hours a week and our toddler is getting verbal so I know it won't be long before she can tell me what she's done and if she's happy or not.

when you hand your dc over, bloody predictive!

Northernshore- personal recommendation from other parents is good. If its a well established nursery, talk to parents whose children are now older, as well as other parents who are using it now.

Make plenty of visits, both with and without your dd. Chat to and watch a range of staff- not just the manager. Look at the ethos and the kind of routine the nursery follows. Are they child led, what is the food like, range of activities Etc. Dont let isolated things in themself put you off. eg if a carwr doesnt immediately respond to a child then actually thats nlt necessarily a bad thing... as a SAHP you are sometimes in the middle of a task, putting the washing on or whatever, and its actually just normal life that sometimes a child has to wait a couple of minutes. of course if children are always having to wait thats not a good sign, but what im saying is: be really honest with yourself about what you would be doing at home with your child. If (like me) you want a home from home ethos, then you won't want an overload of activities; you're more interested in the natural flow of the day rather than staff micro managing every second

Dont be afraid to ask as many questions as possible- a good nursery will give you time to do that and won't want to mislead you or pull the wool over your eyes. They will want to have a happy secure child in their care. Finally, the most important thing ime is the day to day intuition you have of your child.. You pick up as a parent how your child is feeling better than anyone, so have confidence in your judgement about your family .

I think your mistake though is in assuming that parents are making judgements based on a few visits

I know from years of experience that plenty of parents are taken in. That's why the settings I complained about still had customers. If parents really realised what was going on those settings would have been shut down PDQ.

The fact is that children crying on arrival is put down to manipulation or separation anxiety. Children respond positively when practitioners offer positive interactions in front of parents because children generally live in the moment.

I've watched a manager screaming at a 3YO child for dripping water on the floor when drying his hands then ruffling his hair and telling his very articulate, intelligent and all round good person, mother what a lovely morning he's had while his mother encourages him to take his face out of her skirt and say thank you to the manager.

Don't tell me that parents can always tell when something is amiss in an Early Years setting. It's simply not true. Some people might suss. Many don't.

Perhaps you need to credit parents who use nurseries with the same intuition and care that you'd credit other parents..

I'm not sure why you think I'm putting parents who use nurseries down. They are just parents like you and me. I have no issue with anyone using nurseries. I just want them to be getting the good quality childcare they are paying for.

Sounds awful. I'm glad I don't operate in a workplace where I wouldn't hand on heart want my family to be clients

Anyway, thankfully not all, or even most , early years settings are filled with such awful practitioners.

*Sounds awful. I'm glad I don't operate in a workplace where I wouldn't hand on heart want my family to be clients

Anyway, thankfully not all, or even most , early years settings are filled with such awful practitioners.*

My DD was at that setting with me. I had to reduce her days to only the ones I was working so I knew she was safe because the manager was angry with me for challenging her.

I then left in order that my DD could attend a different setting and wrote a comprehensive letter of complaint to Ofsted.

You are right that most settings are not like this. As I said before, I saw more good practice than poor but working in various settings over the years has taught me that far too many are and there seems to be little anyone can do about it in the current system

Children's Elevated Cortisol Levels at Daycare: A Review and Meta-Analysis says:

"Our main finding was that at daycare, children display higher cortisol levels compared with the home setting. It was shown that the effect of daycare attendance on cortisol excretion was especially notable in children younger than 36 months. We speculate that children in centre daycare show elevated cortisol levels because of their stressful interactions in a group setting."

Wombles - would that apply for just 2 days a week - or be reduced? What would you do in my position with a 2 year old and needing care soon?

The one that I'm thinking of sending mine to - the manager's children attend. That's got to be good?

Oh Gold - I'd hate for my child to be shouted at at all. THe poor child. Is there anything I can do or accept the not-knowing as part of the package of an all round good childhood at home?

My advice would be to talk to people locally in RL who use that nursery northern. And of course lots of visits, pop ins and asking questions. That's going to be far more relevant to your situation than asking people who don't know you and your child, or reading myriad reports which are often based on research done in all sorts of countries and contexts and which will all have conflicting conclusions anyway!
This is your child and trust me, you will know better than any stranger on an Internet forum how your child is doing

Thanks Janey68. I guess I'm conflicted as I don't really want to be in the position of needing nursery. I've spoken to some people whose children have been through it, I like the manager. I would rather it wasn't teenage girls supervising, but I guess I'd need to see it a bitlike babysitting/creche for those 2 days. I'll go and look again.

If you're not keen on nursery then how about a cm? And go for someone older if you're more comfortable with that. A cm is usually cheaper or the same as nursery, so if you can afford nursery there's no reason why you shouldn't afford a cm. And be prepared to travel for the right childcare... My children's wasnt the most convenient distance wise for my workplace but it was the right place for my children.

Actually my advice would be to look at a range of options... This is what we did and we settled on a cm for when they were very young and then nursery , then back to cm for wraparound school care. Having said that, my children have friends who were in nursery as young babies and they are perfectly fine and well adjusted, as are their friends who had SAHP too.

There's a cm I love but not with space until next September. I will need care within a few weeks and have no recommendations so feel terrified leaving them in the care of just one person, at least with nursery there's others there. I prefer the cm option just in my circumstance I can't have the one that does come well regarded. I could use them next Sept.

I'm a teacher, so need to be at my school by 8.15ish which limits how far I could travel to drop off children.

The one that I'm thinking of sending mine to - the manager's children attend. That's got to be good?

I'd take that as a good sign, Northern.

I think you need to look first off for a setting that makes you feel comfortable and one where the children are in charge of their own learning, not being constantly told what to do or made to keep to lots of silly rules like no cars in the sand or don't use a painting apron for water play. Listen to how the children speak to each other as they may copy the staff.

Second I'd say, if your child isn't happy, don't assume it's separation anxiety. Listen and respond to messages that your child doesn't want to attend and be willing to believe them over the adults.

I don't think you can ever really know what goes on when you're not around but that applies to all settings including schools. My DD1 has just left a mainstream autism unit where I have a feeling that the staff may have been bullying her and others. If so it was done cleverly, subtly and with much gaslighting. My instincts tell me that I'm right but I had no evidence. I do know that she is much happier in her new school.

Maybe webcams are the answer but the systems are expensive and practitioners don't always want to be on camera as is evidenced further up this thread.

you will know better than any stranger on an Internet forum how your child is doing

Of course. More to the point, if you feel something is wrong, don't be persuaded by any other adults not to listen to your instincts.

that's very true, re. schools and never knowing what really goes on. Dd2 was bullied by a teacher horribly. Luckily she was 8/9 at the time and could tell me what the teacher was doing. The teacher had form and has gone now, but yes, schools are not safe havens. They also have their fair share of crap staff.