To still feel disturbed about this nursery.

[MrsDrRanj]

This has been bugging me on and off for years, one of those things where I feel like I should 'do' something because it just doesn't settle in my mind well.

5 years ago, when I was 17, I got an apprenticeship at a nursery through a training course. I'd never had a job, hadn't finished school and was recovering from a breakdown so it was a big deal to me. I was naive and very nervous.

Things happened while I was there that now really bother me, especially as a parent who may have to find a nursery for ds one day.

There was an incident with 2 other apprentices having a shouting match infront of pre school children, including calling eachother 'slags' etc. they were not fired and parents were not informed.

The manager came into the room I worked in and loudly discussed the children's progress infront of them, including declaring that a little boys speech wasn't as it should be and she had suspicions he was colour blind (right infront of the little boy who was 3)

One man punished a preschool boy who suffered with constipation for having an accident by forcing him into a nappy that was too small for him. The boy was screaming and in the end there was poo everywhere including the little boys hair. Another member of staff came and shouted at him but nothing else was done. (I have recently read in the news that this man has now been convicted with voyeurism and possessing indecent images of children which made me go cold)

When I was invited on a work dinner out the leader of the preschool room spent a lot of the night doing impersonations of the children, including taking the piss out of a little girl for not understanding much when English was not her first language.

In general the nursery was badly managed, people were bitchy and mean, apprentices were left in charge when they shouldn't have been etc and thankfully I didn't stay there long. But it still bothers me. The nursery is still running and though there's a chance the staff may have moved on there could also be the same people working there.

The nursery had been rated 'outstanding' by ofsted and was part of a high end chain of nurseries. It has left me terrified of putting DS in nursery as id be devastated if any of the above situations involved my child. I feel awful for not doing anything at the time but I was so inexperienced.

Would you do something now? And if so what? I don't want it to bug me forever I just can't seem to shake it from my mind.

Why shouldn't childcare workers be in it for the money? At the moment, the very notion of that is laughable anyway. Why do you go to work? If your boss told you that he wants to reduce your salary to NMW because you should do what you do for the mere love of it, while he/she creamed off the profits, what would be your response? I can't see any reason why childcare workers should have to be financially altruistic for other people's children. Why should they love them? Of course, they should take pride in their work and do the best they can as ideally anyone does with their job if they want to keep it. A checkout operator (who is often better paid) is not expected to love her customers, she has to be polite and efficient. The days of getting some dimwitted young woman with few options who only wants to play with the 'little un's" for a few bob each week for the rest of her life are long gone...those simply aren't around and most who do join up see it as a stopgap measure until they are doing something close to what they really want to be doing.

Amen to that mimishimi.

Gosh. I was a bit clueless with one baby when I had mine. 8 babies is just nuts!!!

Those saying not nursery for a 2 year old - what should I do? How would I know a childminder would be any better?

Are you really not supposed to cuddle babies? If I had to have a baby in care, that's almost all I'd want them to do!

The financial thing shocks me. When I returned to work (part time) dd was 8 months old. I paid a friend half my salary to look after my dd. She registered as a cm (1975) and looked after dd until she started school which was when I went full time (teacher). I know not everyone can afford to do that but to me caring for my child was as important as any job I could do. I returned to work because dh was ill and I knew I would eventually be the only breadwinner.

're looking for childminders I went on the word of mouth of a very good friend of mine as I trusted her opinion. If I had to use one again I would go to local toddler/children's centre groups and hang around outside local pre schools and watch how they behave with their charges.

My childminders would be playing with the children at toddler group, she'd also greet her charges with a big smile and a cuddle after pre school. She basically behaved like their Mum would. Some of the other childminders would shouting as discipline ( I don't mean a one off but every time I saw them). Drinking cups of tea at toddler group having no idea where their charges were as they had their backs to them. Just watch them over a period of weeks and see what kind of behaviour you want your children to receive and choose that one ( obviously after a home visit and talking to them too).

The childminders here have their own toddler group, and don't come to the usual one. I've been at pre-school gates and school gates and only met the one (and she's fully booked). There are so many stay at home parents, or mums-around-the-corner. Its not a wealthy area, and I'd really like a non-shouty, happy to cuddle, outdoorsy person but of course they'd tell me that . . . At least in a nursery I could supervise.

To the teacher giving half her salary to her friend -I'd do that in a flash! That's like a cheap private nanny, and you know you can trust them.

I'm looking at returning part time and childcare for one and before and after school for the other will wipe a lot more than half my salary!!!

If you choose a CM or a nanny you have a lot more opportunity to chase up references, see them at toddler groups, drop in unannounced at your own home at random times etc. Plus nannies tend to be better paid which removes some of the demotivating factors of working in a nursery and as there aren't colleagues to chat to about their personal lives they get on with the job.

IME a majority of childcare workers are peer pressured into behaving a certain way. I did a placement in a nursery when I was 18 where it wasn't considered cool to actually interact with the children! I did report the standards there to OFSTED and found out a few years later the nursery had closed down. I saw one member of staff a few years later - she was a nice girl but very swayed by the deputy manager who was a nasty piece of work - and she'd registered as a CM and was doing a great job. It's a problem with a young workforce.

As for qualifications not being as good I trained post NNEB, and I did my best. Had the NNEB been available I'd have done it but you work with what you have. The proliferation of qualifications which were all supposedly the same didn't help standards but also there's far too much emphasis on topics other than playing with and caring for children.

The sector is making moves to professionalise itself both as a whole and in individual professions but the biggest problem is that no-one really cares, except conscientious staff and parents who are sufficiently worried about poor practice.

The nursery I did a placement in was FANTASTIC. I was there for a week and didn't see a single thing that wasn't good, the children were loved and throve. It's a council nursery that has been going for decades with a really good age range of staff. Equipment and toys well cared for but also well worn

Everybody wants to work in a council nursery. The pay is considerably better than private places, the equipment always better, staffed better with higher ratios and bank staff, and better training. It's almost as if you get what you pay for!

A Mumsnet nursery review site? The other site up thread had virtually no reviews on it. I've looked at other review places and it's sort of the same story. I think Mumsnet is the one place where the idea would actually stand a chance of working due to the numbers already on here. In the nursery section there's a long review thread of Kids Unlimited that makes interesting reading.

But you then have all the usual problems of the nurseries setting up a few accounts and leaving great anonymous reviews, and competitors and disgruntled bonkers customers leaving bad ones. Might be good to try. Maybe MNHQ should do London nurseries and see what happens?

Childcare workers shouldn't just be in it for the money. It's the same with care jobs or nursing. The desire to care and look after someone should be a motivator as well as the money. A checkout assistant isn't expected to love her customers because she isn't expected to be a caregiver for the customer for how ever many hours a day. A childcare worker should care or love the children to some extent because he or she is supposed to make bonds with children as part of his or her job. The childcare workers who don't love or like children stand out like sore thumbs and the children notice it too.

The nursery my DS went to had awards, outstanding ratings blah blah blah. They were beyond shit and I regret to this day being fooled by them and their glittering prizes. I told ofsted who could not have cared less. I told the police as my DS had been seen by another parent being gripped around his jaw and shouted at (18months) but too much time had elapsed. The parent believed I'd been told . I hadn't been and a chance meeting 2 years later meant I was told. By this time DS had already been removed.

I dropped in unexpectedly and what I saw was horrendous. Bored gossiping staff and children totally out of control climbing bookshelves, fighting, crying. This was rated outstanding and cost me £700 a month.

I now won't send a DC who can't speak to a nursery / pre school and I find it very hard to trust.

I worked in 2 nurseries years ago. Both were run by charities and were in basic buildings. But the care was outstanding and the staff would never have said anything negative in front of the children.

I visited a very posh expensive nursery and while the building was gorgeous, there didn't seem the level of care I was used to.

I would always look at the quality of relationships between children and staff. I think some parents focus on much less important thinmgs when choosing a nursery.

Yes Grennie - that's been my experience since DC1. I was impressed by facilities / ofsted etc. but it was way too big and a money making venture for the owners before anything else. I suspect the staff were on a pittance.

And always always drop in announced several times before choosing a nursery. Look at things that matter, which are not necessarily what you get your attention drawn to. For example, I was shown a workbook they used for 3 and 4 year olds to teach them writing skills. If I was placing a child there. I wouldn't have given a shit about that. But I was obviously supposed to be impressed.

It is illegal to film staff covertly unless they know they could be being filmed.

There is one thing I'd really, really like to know but hardly dare ask for fear of offending people.

I'll give it a go...

it seems like this country has a culture that determines women MUST go back to work if at all possible when their children are - well as little as they can get away with.

The nursery issue might be resolved if parents (not necessarily mothers) stayed at home to care for their children, until they went to school.

Especially if MOST nurseries do not provide as good a standard of care as the parent would.

So my question is - would we, as mothers/parents, WANT to be allowed, or encouraged by the culture/government to stay at home with our children, or would we rather it was better facilitated that we hand childcare over to other people?

I always feel so desperately sorry for parents who don't want to return to work, but have seemingly no other choice, when their child is really small.

I have never used a nursery. Reading this thread I would never want to.

So what would people like in an ideal world? I get the wanting to work thing, but with a child you can maybe put that on hold for a few years in many occupations...trying to combine both can be really hard I think.

I'd love to do that Pato but jobs are scarce these days. Also there's not guarantee if you're out for a long time that you'd get back in in your local area. I don't want to uproot my daughter if I don't have to, so that gives me a limited number of schools I could teach in. I then have a limited number of jobs in my subject. Its a good rural area, so people in those jobs don't tend to leave, so I'd be highly unlikely just to walk back into one.

IN my ideal world I'd have a very wealthy OH and I'd dabble myself, or be free to take risks on property or retrain as a psychotherapist. However, as I don't have a wealthy OH and mumsnet has hammered home the risks of redundancy, ill health, etc etc I need to make sure I have a foot in the job market.

I'd love nto to use a nursery. I'd love a nanny as I can't do it myself but can't afford one. You're in a privileged position, Pato.

I'm going to visit a nursery this afternoon - of course they will be on best behaviour. Any hints what to look out for?

inspections should definitely be undercover and much more regular. of course staff are going to be engaged and caring when they are being watched. or alternatively all places where these are vulnerable people such as hospitals, care homes and nurseries should have cctv which inspectors can review regularly.

there not these

Many years ago I worked in a private nursery while training, I went to college one day a week and worked in the nursery 4 days a week. I worked from 8am-4pm.

It wasn't all bad and the women I worked with were all caring and did their job well, BUT...corners were cut and ultimately it was about the money for the owners.

There were several 'staff members' who like me were unqualified, we were included in the staff numbers legally required to make up the ratio numbers.

I wasn't paid as such, but I received a 'training for work' allowance of about £50 a week [I started the course through the job centre after losing my previous job] so it was basically free workers for that nursery.

I remember being very unwell with a chest infection [when you work in a nursery you tend to get everything going and I got a secondary infection from having a cold] I called in sick one day and the owner was most pissed off as it affected her staffing ratios.

I left after about 6 months and reported everything to the training for work person at the job centre.

My experience and those of the other people I attended college with put me off using a private nursery for my children.

Child care workers could easily be paid more, the nursery owners were loaded, but it is a business and its all about making money not paying good wages for those actually doing the job.

Pato, you'd get more response to this if you started a new thread.