to ask for your help in writing an objection to Operation Christmas Child?

[autumnwinds]

Our local primary is supporting OCC and has published a piece in the village magazine explaining how wonderful it is and how much the local children enjoy it, what a difference it makes to needy children, and inviting local residents to donate too. The piece omits any reference to the evangelical christian literature that is distributed with the parcels and the way that the gifts are used as a tool to agressively convert recipients to christianity.

I would like to write a reply for publishing in next month's issue trying to give the full picture so that people can make an informed choice about whether to donate to this charity, and to suggest some alternatives that don't come with the religious baggage.

As I don't have a child at the primary yet I'm not sure about tackling the school itself about it (they are not a faith school, so not sure they should be supporting this). DC will be starting next year so I might save that fight for next xmas!

Anyway does anyone have any ideas about a few lines I could write, something succinct and unemotional? I feel quite cross about it but don't want to come across as an equally fundamentalist atheist. I've been looking for some evidence on the web for people who want to know more but most of it is not well referenced...

Don't be too hard on yourself, thegrey

If someone can point me in the direction of a Muslim state which promotes gay rights or a mainstream Muslim organisation in the UK which does the same thing I might change my mind.

Here you go.

You realise many Muslims have no choice about their religion? Many muslims believe different things and being Muslim doesn't mean you agree with the Taliban. But if you want to lump them all together go ahead.

I've supported Operation Christmas Child before and wasn't aware that the boxes were accompanied by any religious literature etc. Your post (and subsequent research) has made me reconsider whether to support it this year, however in your position, I wouldn't say anything. Let people do their own research and make their own minds up.

Seasicksal-unfortunately there is a lot of anti-gay hatred in parts of Christian Africa. Most obvious is Uganda with it's "Kill the Gays Bill" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_Anti-Homosexuality_Bill According to this article it is partially funded by US fundamentalists and propped up by the American tax payer. www.huffingtonpost.com/james-peron/whos-helping-finance-ugandas-kill-the-gays-bill-you-are_b_2229509.html
Rebecca Kadaga, the Speaker of the Ugandan Parliament, who has promised to pass the country’s notorious Anti-Homosexuality Bill as a “Christmas gift”.was blessed by Pope Benedict last year
jonathanturley.org/2012/12/14/pope-blesses-ugandan-leader-who-wants-to-execute-gays/

It was you Wellies!

Great links trock and others.

thebody all religions are recruitment drives!! they don't lie.

You must have a different definition of lying. Most Christian religions claim their only interest is being moral and helping people.

er they belive in an almighty God!!!

Muslims/ Jews/ all religions belive in an all powerful being!

the whole point if these clubs is to control their followers and collect money.. all the mainstream religions are hugely rich while the vast majority if their followers are poor.

they don't lie.. look around you at the churches in this country alone, the beautiful mosques! the banks that back 'wonga.com and the mosques that preach peace and support the opposite.

religions are transparent. control and money!

most sensible people see this.

er they belive in an almighty God!!!

Muslims/ Jews/ all religions belive in an all powerful being!

the whole point of these clubs is to control their followers and collect money.. all the mainstream religions are hugely rich while the vast majority if their followers are poor.

they don't lie.. look around you at the churches in this country alone, the beautiful mosques! the banks that back 'wonga.com and the mosques that preach peace and support the opposite.h

religions are transparent. control and money!

most sensible people see this.

most sensible people see this

Yes, and most sensible people won't allow their donations to be used in order to further these aims, body. You don't appear to care much.

It is quite possible for a religious group to confine themselves to merely helping people, leaving any conversion aims at home. Many, many do.

And yet you cannot see the harm in a group deliberately using the generosity of others as a TOOL to sign up vulnerable children to their programs? Programs that, no doubt, promote the homophobia and racism that the organisation stands for?

"Oh but they can just throw out the literature if they are not interested" is stunningly immature & naive & shows that you have managed to miss the point entirely.

Religions are famous for "getting them when they're young". This lot are adding "get them when they are poor & in need" and attitudes like yours are giving them a massive helping hand.

You know reading this makes me feel a complete idiot for the 3 or 4 years I packed a shoe box.

Even setting aside the ulterior motives it's such an inefficient way of providing help.

You got instructions to include things like toiletries, pens, gloves and scarves. There was a long thread on here about how presents can miss the mark for people you know, so how the hell was this supposed to work?

Obviously the sensible thing for a charity to do is assess what is really wanted and needed and to get money to allow goods to be sourced wholesale and as near as possible to the distribution point to maximize spending power and achieve consistency in the gifts.

It really was all about the giver getting to feel good.

I always picked "teenage boy" and tried to buy things my own teenage boy might like So as well as the dull things I'd add whatever nice smelly stuff/hair stuff, band t-shirts, he might like. I agonised about including a CD one year ( Kings of Leon, they'd been headlining all the festivals that year), no real idea of who I was buying for, would he have anything to play it on? Who knows? Put it in anyway fully aware this could be first world cultural imperialism at its worst.

I used to allow £35-£40. Actually pretty annoyed now to think how much more real, targeted good would have been done if I'd just donated that to the local branch of The Sally Army.

Anyone who is looking for places that evaluate charities, these two websites (though both American) might be a good place to start:

www.charitynavigator.org/
www.givewell.org/

I can't believe how spectacularly naive some people are being on this thread regarding extreme fundamentalism....people in the West seem to have a good idea of what makes up the mind of an extreme Muslim fundamentalist and labels them dangerous and unhinged, and yet are extremely blasé about extreme Christian Fundamantalists...they are both, fundamentally, the same.

Exactly, pink, it's shocking to be so dismissive of the facts and pretty much say "oh they're all basically the same" when they most certainly are not! Boggles the mind and I can't wrap my head around that level of wilful ignorance.

Caitlin17, that's one of the things that's so spectacularly evil about this organisation. They are basically swindling those that are donating and diverting funds from charities that do real good. You and others who donated without knowing the truth should take comfort in the fact that your hearts were in the right place and you tried your best to do something very generous and selfless. All laudable qualities and we need more good people like you and others who donated without knowing in the world.

And pink I case I wasn't clear I completely agree that Muslim and Christian fundamentalists are the same. Many Muslims and Christians are wonderful and both groups have faith-based charities that do a lot of good. Fundamentalist of both religions are unhinged, ruin the good names of their respective religions and do a great deal of damage to people and society. They will not at nothing to push their hate-filled beliefs on others. A lot of the violence and wars we see around the world are fuelled by fundamentalists including of the Christian variety - in the US the politics of most fundamentalists and evangelicals are extremely warmongering.

Even if you set aside the evangelical side- which I don't- it's just so wildly impractical. Just think about the cost of shipping these boxes, the air miles, the carbon footprint of each box (a box filled with stuff made in China being sent from England to Malawi, for example). Hats, gloves and scarves? How do we know it's not going to a country where it never gets cold? How do they decide on the ground who gets a box and who doesn't?

It's all, sadly, about the giver.

Sorry,posted too soon.
It's all about the giver- which is why people get so cross about it. It's a way of giving that feels fantastic.

I find your post quite upsetting, Caitlin.

For a start, you're not an idiot for being a decent person & that was your one and only motivation. So leave all idiocy thoughts aside.

I think taking such trouble over finding just the right thing for someone that you will never meet is lovely & I hope, if it gave you pleasure to do it, that you can continue with an organisation with less dubious morals - and there really are plenty around.

I agree, though, that's it's uneconomical when they are being flown to the third world. But there are women's shelters & children's homes here that would love to receive thoughtful packages like that.

But anyway - don't feel like an idiot. Feel like a nice person who was a bit duped. Like loads of others, including me.

Caitlin- please don't feel bad. The marketing is so skillful that it takes most people ages to see through it. As you can see, many people never do!

I'm sure it doesn't fly, the ones from my area go by lorry. And in our boxes there's soap tooth paste and brushes, gloves or hat pencils so its not all plastic tat.

I think that many Christian charities will be trying to convert or at least introduce people to the Christian faith.

Compassion is well rated on the charity navigator site and they say -

"Compassion's holistic child development programmes focus on the spiritual, economic, social and physical needs of children through all stages of development. Our programmes are unique in that they are Christ Centred, Child Focused and Church Based."

'How do we know it's not going to a country where it never gets cold?'

A lot of the boxes go to places like Bosnia and Romania - why would you think they all go to places that never get cold?

However reading this thread has made me think twice about donating this year - I will probably do something else.

"why would you think they all go to places that never get cold?"

I don't.

Agree with the carbon footprint statement. Id much rather people made a shoebox for kids in a local womens shelter, or even better, bought £20 worth of food for the local foodbank.

Imagine all those toys, manufactured in sweatshops in China and Taiwan, transported thousands of miles to the UK, sold at over inflated prices and then shipped back to people who barely have enough food to eat. Much of what is sent ends up in street markets to be sold so the family can eat.

Meanwhile, people in this country are so slammed by the cuts in benefits that they are struggling to eat - there was a post on here recently about a couple that only eat once a day, as they cannot afford any more. Its madness.

I've known pretty much how bad OCC was for years (though didn't know about the anti-gay side) and have been wary. However my sons' cubs and scouts collect them for the church where they meet and I did boxes one year in order to support the scout leaders. (I know, mad logic.)

However, it is the most ridiculous idea ever. Even if you try hard to put in useful stuff, ie gloves, toothbrushes, pens etc, you're not going to put in expensive items. So the produce you buy might well have been produced in dodgy conditions, shipped half way round the world, been sold to you at 5 times the price it's really worth and will be shipped half way round the world again.

It is the most inefficient form of giving ever, without even considering the evangelical aspects. Just a pound coin in any charity box is worth much much more. I would be following OP if my school decided to support it, as there is a pressure on the kids to join in.

Look at number of people who buy pointless gifts for everyone they've ever known - they'll be the ones who really love this.