aibu regarding my toddlers behaviour

[mennie1980]

Hi all. Long time lurker, first time poster.

This afternoon I was upstairs sorting Laundry and my 2.10 year old son starting throwing lots of toys over the stair gate onto the stairs.

I went down stairs and told him off and explained how dangerous is was and how mummy could trip and hurt herself.

He said I want you to fall down the stairs and break your leg. I told him this was a horrible thing to say and asked him to apologise. He refused. So I told him our planned activities this afternoon, making cakes and the park were cancelled and no toys or TV this afternoon just drawing. He screamed the place down and cried himself to sleep.

He is now sleeping peacefully and I am wondering if I have been unreasonable.

He is adopted and our first and only child and not been with us very long so this is all so new and scary and today has been a dreadful day.

Ach, we've had a great day here, the toddler and the baby have been (imo) parented all correctly and i'll still sit down later on and have a cuppa and a cry!

Stock up on tissues, and go easy on yourself! You'll be fine

I think you will have a much easier time of it if you don't think of him trying to dictate to you. He's still so very young and is going through so much. He is testing boundaries and trying to understand how the world works, that's all.

Interpreting it as him trying to dictate or control you is putting you yourself at the centre of things, but it's not really about you.

You could also have a look at the Happiest Toddler on the Block, not all the techniques were useful but I thought it was good at describing what's going on in a toddler's brain, and why we shouldn't take behaviour too personally.

Hi Mennie,

I've no advice but wanted to say that I understand your feeling of "I wanted this for so long and I can't do it" - my two were adopted and I have really struggled to feel up to the job. I've had counselling, done CBT and had medication for the anxiety I've felt over it, so don't beat yourself up! Mine are also very good at saying nasty things and it is hard to to take it personally or worry that it means more than perhaps it does. Congratulations on your little family!

Pop over to the Adoption board, there are some very wise parents on there too.

Can you get any support from the post adoption team? I can't imagine what it would be like to suddenly have a toddler and be expected to just get on with it. Toddlers are hard, but usually you get a run-up at it, so can try to set boundaries in a gradual way.
That said, I'm not sure how easy it will be for your DS not to be the boss of you... he's come from a family he lived with all his life into your home, is not used to having these new rules, and is going to be feeling anxious and unsure of the boundaries. A bit of flexibility and a lot of positive attention now will make it easier for you to put the really important boundaries in place as he gets older.

You sound like my husband and I. He's in the middle of a book on Positive Parenting and highly recommends it and he's big on good behaviour. I'll get the name tonight and post it.

The slightly threatening language, my DD said things like this at exactly the same age. It was somewhat unnerving to be honest to be told that she wanted me to break my neck.... They really have no concept at that age though.

The big thing as far as I can work out is that punishments should be short and sweet and relevant to the deed. At 2-3, much like an animal kicked hours after soiling the floor they have no idea what they have done to deserve it.

Saying sorry is a good habit, but they will rarely mean it or understand it. They will start to understand that you are sad, and by pointing out what sad means when they are hurt or upset, you can start to teach them empathy.

Think you were over harsh tbh. Don't really get why you'd have stair gate closed during day, why would you not let him upstairs with you?

Tbh you had my sympathy till you're ' won't be dictated to by a two yr old' comment. I dont know what to make of that...

If I'd spent my earliest years with either one foster carer or a variety of foster carers and then got assigned to a new 'Mummy', I would be feeling pretty confused and trying to work out where I stood.

I would probably be need to find out where the boundaries were in a new home and to learn there would be consequences for transgressing the boundaries - but I think a series of long-drawn out punishments would confuse me, and not do anything for my sense of security.

It was a bit much to cancel all the activities and also withdraw tv/toys. Kids talk all sorts of rubbish, especially little ones, they don't always understand the gravity of what they're saying. It'd've been more appropriate to cancel one activity OR take away toys OR withdraw tv. The "punishment" should fit the "crime", so the speak. Life will be difficult and stressful if you throw the full book at him for every little misdemeanour.

I had one of those preternaturally early talkers and the HV pointed out what I had already worked out for myself: that there is no way there cognitive and emotional development will be keeping pace with their verbal development: they may say things that sound terribly grown-up but you can't expect them to understand it emotionally any more than the child of the same age that says "silly mummy go way".

And fwiw the conversation that triggered this particular discussion with the HV ran like this:

2yo dd: I don't love you! I don't want you to for a mummy any more!

Me: Well, that doesn't matter because I love you and I will always love you.

DD: Not when I'm grown up!

Me: Yes, even when you're grown up. You may move away from me and live in your own grown-up house, but I will still be your mummy and I will always love you.

DD (with enormous relish): No, you'll be dead then.

She had no idea what my being dead would have meant to her emotionally, she was nowhere near the emotional maturity that would have let her imagine what it is like for someone when a family member dies. She had the words but not the experience behind them.

I also have a close relative who was adopted aged 2 after having spent his whole life in care and not (as far as we know) been exposed to any abuse or bad behaviour. He used to have the most violent tantrums and even long after he had grown out of them he had days when he would say totally unreasonable things, argue black was white, start arguments for the sake of it. I don't think it was a direct result of behaviour he had witnessed but more the underlying tensions caused by separation and attachment issues (having been moved from foster family to adoptive family at a sensitive age) that had to find an outlet. His family just learnt to work around him, to be firm with the general rules that were essential to the running of the household, but not to take his bad days personally. He has grown up into a truly lovely adult.

'I had one of those preternaturally early talkers '

The OPs child is nearly 3 I don't see that his language skills are especially advanced? Where are you getting that from?

There have been lots of good comments on here.

First of all, don't think of yourself as a "bad" mum. It's not helpful. Everyone has moments in parenting where afterwards they realise they could have dealt with the situation better. This will continue until the day you die, probably. It doesn't magically stop when they get older.

Second, two year-olds' brains work very differently from adult brains. Throwing toys down the stairs isn't "naughty" to a two-year old, it's fun. Saying "I want you to break your leg" doesn't mean anything, because two-year olds don't even know what breaking a leg means. The trouble with then demanding an apology is that you've ended up in a confrontational situation that it's hard to get out of.

Third, four punishments in one is too much. You have to save the big punishments for really bad behaviour. One punishment would have been enough or probably more than enough.

Finally, as others have said, cut him some slack. OK, he hasn't been abused. But he's still left one family who looked after him for more than two years to a completely new family. That must be a traumatic and frightening experience. It would make any child feel insecure. You have to take that into account.

OP, you sit down while I make you a and cut you a big slice of .

[Fumbles for missing Kleenex emoticon]

Tomorrow's another day x

Firstly you are a fantastic mum, baking and a trip to the park in the same day is a great set of activities slightly envious of your energy!

My thoughts are that he probably said what he said for a reason, rather than making him apologise for what he said it may have been better to try to understand why he said what he said.

Maybe he said he hoped you broke your leg because he felt lonely and wanted you to be close to him (even if it ment serious injury.) Maybe he said he wanted you to break your leg because he misses his foster carer and is showing this to you by saying negative things about you. Maybe he said he wanted you to break your leg because he likes the flashing lights of ambulences. He is so young, I think you need to try to encourage him to try to understand why he is feeling/saying things like that rather than asking him to apologise without aknowledging his motive for saying that hurtful thing.

I have a couple of examles of hurtful things children have said, my d-sis was 3, it was fathers day, she had made a card for her godfather who was her hero at the time (lots of fun days out and he was never the one to set boundries) I said to her "shal we make a card for daddy?" she said "nope, if daddy dies I get to live with godfather, when is daddy going to die so i can live with godfather?" Her logic was very focused on the fun times she had with her godfather and her desire to recreate those fun times all the time. If her dad had heared the comment I'm sure he would have been very hurt. She loves her father very much, it was a short phase and I am sure she didn't mean any harm.

The other example I have is a child I worked with, I gave him English lessons once a week. He was 4. He would run a jump on my knee and cuddle me at the start of every lesson, when my bump started to get big (around 20 weeks) I explained that i had a baby in my tummy to we should try to be gentle when we had our hugs because the baby might get hurt if we were too rough. The little boy said "I will not be gentle, I want to kick your tummy to kill the baby" I was really upset by this (but hopefully managed to hide it from him) I asked him why and he said that he didn't want me to stop being his teahcer and when I had my own baby I wouldn't see him anymore. I reasured him I would see him and me and the baby would come and visit him and the baby will be like him (bilingual) from that day he would come and give me a gentle cuddle and always wanted to "cuddle" my bump too.

Your ds doesn't mean to hurt you, it must be a wirlwind time for both of you.

Congratulation on the new adition to your family!

Thanks all for the advice. I am putting it down to a bad day, he had been a little toad all day and I over reacted. It is all forgotten now and extra cuddles have been given.

I don't need help or support in RL, well apart from the normal. I am just a brand new mum who had been presented with a tantruming toddler. I am exhausted. I feel much better after a little break.

Big girls pants on, tomorrow is another day x

Enjoy tomorrow! If you can maybe take a day off from any house work and just do some fun things that you both enjoy so the preasure of ballancing house work/parenting is taken off yo.

:)

i think you need to maybe accept that children do say some stupid and unkind things. My dd who has asd sometimes pinches me if she can't have what she wants, I tell her that it is naughty and she has hurt mummy. If she continues I then put her on the naughty spot for a few minutes and then she says sorry and we have a cuddle. I wouldnt cancel a whole afternoons activities for one comment or tantrum or whatever. Now that he has been punished dont revisit it when he wakes up just move on. I can see how you feel you want to set boundaries and thats good, but maybe just consider making the point and moving on. Perhaps you could have said in a firm, supernanny style voice 'that is very unkind and I am sure you dont really want mummy to hurt herself' and then move on.

Adapting to being a new parent of a toddler is complex. Strategies for managing behaviour need to be adapted because your DS won't get have security in his relationship with you. You'd probably be better off posting on the adoption board next time as there is a lot of posters there who will have been through it and can give good advice. Make sure you are getting all the support you should be from your adoption worker and your DS's social worker. Try not to put yourself under so much pressure, none of us can be perfect parents all the time.

I think yabu, sorry, but I also agree that you shouldn't beat yourself up about it. He doesn't really know what he's saying, and of course he doesn't mean it. By escalating the whole issue and punishing him, he'll just be focussing on the punishment and directing his anger towards you rather than actually feeling sorry about what he did (which wasn't even that bad imo). Similarly, it's pointless making a child of this age apologize, it doesn't mean anything. It might have been more productive to explain how it upsets you to think he wants to hurt you, and why it isn't a good idea to throw toys, then to go and pick up the toys together. We're also struggling with a toddler, and Alfie Kohn's book 'Unconditional Parenting' has been a revelation. I've seen a big change in behavior, with no punishments whatsoever.

You haven't had very long to find out what works for you as a family in terms of consequences, so you will try things out and find some better than others. You probably haven't spent the past 3 years in contact with other parents of similar aged children at toddler groups etc either, so the natural sharing of ideas hasn't happened for you yet. Don't beat yourself up over it, but I agree that you went too far.

I have a just 3 yo and what works for us is counting to 3 and if she hasn't done what I asked by 3 then she gets 3 min on the naughty step or the naughty step until she is ready to apologise (depending on what the issue is).

My DD wouldn't have a concept of what a whole afternoon is as concepts of time aren't great at that age (to a certain extent the past is all yesterday and the future is all tomorrow).

Similarly she doesn't know what language is acceptable until she has tried it. She likes to play with ideas. In the past few weeks she has wished she was dead, that her (nursery) teachers were dead (said to me not them) and that she was in a car crash. She doesn't really understand what these things are and they are just useful prompts to explore these ideas in more depth. I wouldn't punish her for saying them or particularly expect an apology the first time she said them.

I wouldn't present drawing as a punishment - it's a useful activity for developing fine motor skills. In the same way as I had to explain to DH that I would prefer him not to say "If you don't do X then I won't put you to bed, Mummy will" as I am not a punishment!

We take a "pick your battles" approach with DD. We don't have many rules and DD very rarely gets a 3 min punishment - perhaps twice a week.

I wonder about your comment that the foster family lacked boundaries. I obviously don't know the circumstances, but foster carers often have a huge amount of experience, so I wouldn't dismiss their approach necessarily.

I know how hard it must be for you. I have a grandson who at that age went through a phase of saying 'I hate you' or 'I don't like you' to me.

I found it really hard and to begin with we asked for him to apologise but then wondered what do we do if he refused.

In the end his parents and/or I responded with, oh dear, I love you and went on as though nothing had been said. It all blew over very quickly after that. I think they are often just trying out words and situations and waiting to see what reaction they get.

I found it easier when it was my own children not my grandchild and maybe an adopted child is similar in not having that birth tie.

Good luck

No don't feel bad, he is pushing the boundaries like any other toddler, you are new to him as he is to you. I would tell him tat you live him very much, but that was not a nice thing to say, terefore no park or cake baking. Is teir a support group near you for other adopted parents. It's tough enough being a parent let alone being an adoptive parent to a toddler in the middle of the terrible twos

Of course he didn't mean it he is just 2.10yo. I think the trick is to deal with the problematic behaviour there and then and not take what he says about it to heart as if he meant it. So if he is throwing toys give him a warning that if he keeps throwing toys you will take them away and then follow through. That is enough punishment for what he has done, which is to throw toys, forget about what he said, and it is immediate which is more likely to have an effect.

Sorry means nothing to a toddler. If he's not been with you long he definitely needs lots of love & understanding just now. Try reading what every parent needs to know, ToddlerCalm or unconditional parenting by Alfie Cohn