To think that if your child is scared of dogs you should encourage them not to scre and wail if my dog is 300 ft away...

[Beccadugs]

Walking my dog today, she was of lead, about 10ft ahea of me waiting for me to chuck the ball. A child cycled towards us, saw my dog (who is half toy poodle so tiny) and started screaming. My dog just looked at her and then carried on our walk, if she was the type to run up to strangers/kids she wouldn't be off the lead. However, when she was a puppy and less well trained this screaming was an invitation (in her mind) to investigate.

While I accept that some children are scared of dogs, and that is fine. I would have thought that if there is a dog in the general vicinity encouraging your DC not to scream is probably for the best when the dog is ignoring you completely. AIBU, we all want to use the local facilities happily.

I'm not saying the beaviour is exactly the same.

Dogs have been bred for specific behaviours

They are still wolves, though. Biologically and carry a lot of similar behaviours. Some species more than others.

But my point still stands that for a child they are still seen as predators and bigger animals than for us. Our instinct is also to see them as predators too. Our brain can override it by learning, but it's not a natural conclusion that it's natural to share our space with dogs. And less so that we must. Dog owners should keep in mind that their animals are in fact intruding in the normal daily lives of other humans.

They are not exactly a natural part of our environment. We must learn how to deal with them if we want to interact with dogs. Sometimes people don't want to. Or some people don't want to. Dog owners should respect it and have it in mind.
(and yes, parents of children who approach dogs should also have in mind that dogs are not stuffed toys)

I think dog owners and parents both have a responsibility to be honest. We have a lovely green outside the front of our house, DC can't play out there as there is a large rottweiler and some sort of bull dog that both get out frequently. Whilst I accept they might be perfectly pleasant dogs, at the end of the day they're still dogs and big enough to kill or very seriously injure the DC, so I don't run the risk.
Where my parents dog is concerned, I teach the children how to behave appropriately towards him as a) its his house and b) i think they have better reasoning abilities and are more likely to understand the message than a dog. even at a very young age.
FWIW he's a very sweet animal and very protective of the children. he has bitten someone once, the postman who came to the house when the door was open, the baby was in the buggy ready to go out and the dog was stood between the too. he is a bit of a worrier about babies. But however sweet he is I still don't ever leave him in a room with them on his own, because at the end of the day, he's a dog! if he bit one of the children it would be my fault, not his and its not fair to put him in that position (or my parents.)

Oh and it's not normal for dogs to run up to and jump up at other people and dogs. It's lazy dog ownership

Well, actually it's pretty normal. Lazy dog ownership is very common. That's why so many people dislike dogs. I appreciate that most of the dog owners on here are responsible, but out on the streets of south London where I live - not so much. Dog shit everywhere, 'status' dogs walked by kids who aren't strong enough to contorl them, loads of 'oh he's bombproof, please encourage your toddler to maul him' dog 'lovers'. Sorry but irresponsible dog owners are everywhere.

'dogs are still wolves'
???????
No they're not.
And it's not 'our environment' either. We share the world with animals.

notanymore that's a good post. And any sensible person would agree (IMHO) that your approach is very reasonable.
But the words you use are interesting to me. you say you wouldn't leave the dog with your DCs unsupervised because you wouldn't want to put the dog in "that position". Personally, I wouldn't leave my DCs with a dog because I don't want them to be injured/ disfigured/ killed by the dog. It's the DCs that I don't want put in "that position".
Sorry to sound like I'm missing the point and I can see that it seems fussy, but your post isn't the first time i've seen that attitude and it reminded me that IMHO there is an excess of sentiment and anthropomorphism around dogs.

Ok, I am a dog lover, have lived with them all my life and would really like one. Unfortunately my two are terrified of them. It started with DS when my parents' dog barked loudly at him once for no apparent reason (dog is same age as DS so was a baby himself at the time - he is the softest, most harmless idiot of a dog ever). From that point on DS was terrified, and when DD arrived 9 months later it filtered down to her.

I have always reassured them about dogs, taught them that barking is their 'talking' etc and slowly DS (almost 4 now) is coming round to the idea (saying he'd like us to get a little one, stroking small ones (with owner's consent!) etc). DD, however, is still entrenched, and will scream whenever she sees one. I do the same reassurance with her and hopefully she will come round, but what does the OP expect me to do in the interim?

Telling her off would demonise the dogs even more as she would associate them with being in trouble, so all I can do is gently encourage her the way I have with DS. As a dog lover I do understand it is frustrating, but really of you cannot trust your dog not to attack a frightened child then that dog should not be off the lead. If you can trust the dog then let the parents get on with parenting their child in the way they best see fit.

The Smithsonian has a great article explaining about the latest research into dogs. One of the things it says is:

"One of the big schools of thought is you have to really be an alpha dog. You have to make sure the dog doesn’t think he can boss you around. That premise is probably based on some faulty rationale, that dogs evolved from wolves, and wolves have a very strict hierarchy. That’s a reasonable hypothesis, except that there’s one major problem: dogs are not wolves. Looking at feral dogs, what people have found is that they don’t have a strict hierarchy. It’s not that you follow the dominant individual. With feral dogs, the leader is the individual that has the most friendships in the group. It’s not about dominance."

www.smithsonianmag.com/ideas-innovations/Why-Dogs-are-More-Like-Humans-Than-Wolves-192083131.html

I have no clue how to behave around dogs. I suffered from a dog phobia until my late thirties when I finally did something about it. The fear is gone, but that doesn't mean it has been replaced by any dog knowledge, lore or understanding. I don't know what type of dogs it might actually be sensible to be afraid of, I don't know how to talk to dogs or pet them, I haven't a clue. It's VERY HARD to model calm, normal behaviour around dogs for my dd. Threads like this do not make me feel relaxed.

This thread is getting ridiculous.

Anyway I'm off out now with my unleashed dog... I will try my hardest not to let the wolve maim to many people..

Technically dogs are a subspecies of wolves... So they really are just domesticated, selectively bred wolves.

But they do not have the same behavioural patterns, and most domesticated dogs would lack the survival instinct of wolves.

I've always fancied a wolf hybrid. I can understand why people might scream at that sight though ;)

Dogs are evolved from wolves. They are not wolves any more than we are still homo erectus.

I am always torn on dog threads.

1/3 of households have a dog as a pet, so dogs are part of life and unlikely to go away. The dogs give an immense amount of pleasure and companionship to that third of the population. The vast majority of those dogs are no threat to anyone. Exercise is a necessary part of their well being and not really possible on a lead. On this basis, I agree with the OP that parents should help educate their DC how to behave appropriately round dogs (in the same way they teach them how not to flap their hands at wasps, and how not to run in front of a car and how they shouldn't make sudden loud noises near horses).

OTOH clearly dog mess is disgusting and many people (adults and children) are indeed terrified of dogs and (very occasionally) people can be bitten or worse. Given that people are more important than dogs, perhaps the answer is that dogs should be muzzled when off lead in public spaces. I can't see that this would do much harm to the dogs and might just reconcile the two camps. Obv dog owners should also ALWAYS clear up after their dogs as a matter of course. Most do.

So, to those of you who are scared of dogs, would a muzzle reassure you? To dog owners, could you live with that as a compromise so that you get no more anti dog rants in RL or on MN?

PS personally, I am a dog lover but not an owner. Not sure if relevant.

It really doesn't matter whether dogs are descended from wolves or elves tbh.
They can and do maim and/ or kill people.
Some people are scared of them.
I still don't really 'get' the OP.

I think that most people would agree that people should control both dogs and children.
These sorts of threads don't seem to be about that really though. They seem to be all about getting dog owners to say that their dogs are not very important, especially when compared to someone else's children.
This may be true for you, but I love my dog more than I love your children.
If you don't like that, tough. I just don't understand why some people are so insistent about it.

If a child is scared, there is a fair chance that he or she might scream or cry. People cannot help their phobias/fears.
To you, your dog is lovely, friendly and well behaved but others have no way of knowing that. To someone with a phobia it's a very scary thing.
I am not a dog hater but would have my dog leashed if in an area where i knew i would encounter people. The only time i have walked dogs unleashed was in woods in middle of nowhere, but even then when i heard or saw someone, i would call dog back and leash them.

Because dogs are only dogs and children are people.

Kittensoft, they are still the same species. They can breed to produce fertile young, so in some ways the homo erectus analogy is fair. Yes they evolved from wolves but depending on tr breed, not necessarily very far. It might be hard to argue a chihuahua is still practically a wolf, but it's also hard to argue that a malamute, or, if you want an extreme, a timber wolf isn't!

Not that it matters either way, because the issue here isn't genetic - it's training and a sensible approach from the owner, relative to the individual dog.

Actually it is genetic. Feral dogs behave very differently to wolves

ghost i meant i don't want to put the dog into the position of somehow being responsible for always reacting 'correctly' around my children without any supervision because at the end of the he's a dog. I think to do so would be to put human characteristics onto an animal and that would be both unfair to the animal and irresponsible of the people present.
I think Morgause puts it quite succinctly TBH.
(obviously the fact that my children don't get hurt is my main concern, however its not the dogs responsibilty, its mine and theirs)

Dog ownership should be regulated, licensed and owners should be required to attend obedience classes with their dog. Sort of like getting a driving license :). And, sadly for dog owners, it is incumbent on them to let non doggy people know how to safely deal with their dogs. It's not up to non-dog owners to educate themselves on how to treat dogs. So if a toddler comes charging up to maul your pet, then explain to the parents and child why that's wrong. You can't expect non dog owners to have any idea of how to properly greet dogs. Boring, but that would be the responsible thing to do.

Actually it is genetic. Feral dogs behave very differently to wolves

This is true, but that isn't entirely a reflection on genetics. Ferral dogs don't behave differently solely because of genetic differences between them and wolves, they behave differently because they inhabit a different niche. There are genetic differences and there are fundamental differences between dogs and wolves, but dogs remain a subspecies of wolves - not a separate species with genetic and biological distinction.

The psychology of a toy breed differs from that of a herding dog, probably as much as a ferral dog's mentality differs from that of a wolf. That doesn't mean that a toy breed is more, or less of a dog than a herding breed.

Either way, I don't think this is a particularly informative debate. My point was that there is an argument for "dogs are just wolves" because they are simply domesticated wolves with a little selective breeding on them, to a lesser or greater extent. Even if it is a bit scare-mongery to see a JRT and scream "wolf!", while hauling your child into the air to protect it!

Unless my dog was aggressive I would never muzzle him when I take him out to play with his ball.

I would NEVER allow my children to approach a dog without the owner saying it was ok. I witnessed a dog biting incident years ago. A 4 year old boy patted a dog tied up outside a shop. The dog was quiet and showing no signs of not being happy. The boy patted it's head and said something like 'nice doggy' and the dog bit his face. It happened in a split second and the boy needed his nose stitching back on

The boy was alone with his 5 year old friend in a busy high street on market day. His parents were at home about a mile and a half away and thought he was playing out the front but that's another thread entirely You can easily turn your back for a second and your child could go up to a dog. They need to be taught never to approach a dog unless an adult says it's ok. I'm always telling friends who let their toddlers/young children approach dogs that are tied up.

To dog owners, could you live with [muzzling when off lead in public places] as a compromise so that you get no more anti dog rants in RL or on MN

No. I don't think that's fair on the dog. Many of the benefits of a walk are not solely physical. The dog's mental wellbeing is improved by natural behaviours including interacting with other dogs and the environment by sniffing, licking etc, which would be impeded by a muzzle. Not to mention the benefits of toys for mental and physical stimulation.

I could see an argument for muzzling when off lead as a compromise in designated areas. i.e. if you wish your dog to be off lead in a busy, urban park, where it will interact with people.

I think applying such rules to the entire of the country, in all public places, including quiet, rural PROWs etc would be unfair. At least owners would have the choice to travel further and giving their dog proper exercise, and dog-phobics would have places they could be guarenteed no dogs unmuzzled.

I personally don't buy into the idea of a dog being less important than a human. It has fewer rights, in law and by most moral codes than people, certainly. But I feel that, having chosen to take responsibility for a living, feeling animal, that dog's needs and overall wellbeing is as important as any other consideration in your household. And by that, I actually mean that if you're not prepared to exercise it sufficiently, train it, or ensure your child doesn't torment it or whatever, you should have it humanely destroyed. I think the dog is, in principle, as important as the child - you just deal with the issue differently, according to your own priorities (which will almost certainly place your child above your dog).

Does that make sense? I feel it's a hard sentiment to put into words as I'm sure it will be misinterpreted by some as "my dog is just as special as your child", which isn't what I mean - it's my responsibility for him, which is as important as the responsibility towards a child. I find the "animals are less important than people" mentality a little concerning as it implies we can trample all over them as far as we like because hey, they don't matter, they're just animals...