To think that this is terrible news for my children's education?

[ICameOnTheJitney]

Axeing of Soft GCSEs to hit Drama and PE

Exam board insiders confirmed this weekend that subjects such as law, media studies, drama and PE were at risk of being culled from the list of about 58 GCSEs. One source said that as many as 20 subjects were under scrutiny

Why the arts? And surely PE is a VALID subject...not all children are academic and we NEED PE teachers and drama teachers and actors ffs!

Please tell me why, if this happens it's a good thing?

Fanny can I just point out Music is an academic subject. One of the few arts curriculum subjects to be offered at Oxbridge. Music is highly academic.

As a music teacher I get fed up with it being lumped in with less academic subjects.

Atia whilst many selective schools offer these courses, I doubt any of them would recommend a pupil take three or four of these options.

I bet all students have to take Eng, Eng Lit, Maths, triple science, a language? Maybe a humanity too?

So a softer subject might be one of nine or ten?

I can't believe they choose in year 8!!! I could barely choose at age 15 fgs! This kind of thing makes me want to move abroad. I am dreading the seconday years.

Yes word, they could choose at most 2 of these type, plus a technology.

But, like Lottie said, I don't think the argument in this thread is that children should be allowed to do as many as they like, it's about the downgrading of such subjects, which is very sad imo and detrimental to many children receiving a broad and balanced education.

Lottie these subjects won't be banned. They simply won't have the equivalence of a GCSE.

As I say my onw DD is taking drama GCSE. And she very much enjoys it. But she takes it alongside Double English, Maths, triple science, double language and history.

But why shouldn't they be equivalent? That's the issue!

gove will eventually get his academic and vocational spilt. Its looking like GCSEs will be academic and vocational will be btec or some other certification.

gove wanted to bin technology as a subject and it was only saved by senior engineering advisors stepping in and stopping him.

It looks as if they might not be called GCSE.

Whether they're seen as equivalent won't be set by policy.

The reputation will grow spontaneously - just like the relative 'worth' of BTEC (despite the setting of a formal 'equivalence', or the whole concept of a "soft" subject and 'acceptable' balance of academic/soft over total subjects taken, and the general standing of vocational qualifications.

Lottie these subjects won't be banned. They simply won't have the equivalence of a GCSE.

This amounts to the same thing. It will mean that these subjects become the preserve of those not bright enough to do a full set of 'academic' subjects.

Why would the potential medic take something of lesser value? Why would the parents of an average or above pupil allow it?

Independent schools would not continue to support the subject.

Therefore my job would go.

If I was 15 years younger I wouldn't have taken Drama at GCSE age (and therefore then A level) in this sort of set up. Why would I? I was a top set, straight A pupil.

But what a waste, my life would have been an awful lot poorer without my dramatic education.

And all because Michael Gove doesn't think drama has any academic worth?

Doesn't think that the fact that theatre has had a place in every type of civilisation since before the ancient Greeks is important. Doesn't think learning to express yourself is valuable. Doesn't see the value in the experience of performance. The value in teamwork, in rehearsal, in working towards a common goal. In the literature aspect of our subject. In developing creative thinking, in offering pupils the chance to create, emote, explore, discover in this particular way. In essay writing. In the study of practitioners who have culturally added to the world and the collective dramatic practice?

Bollocks. In short. Bollocks.

Wordfactory, but if they don't insist the less able child sit the GCSE, then they will definitely fail the league table measure.

You already see parents complaining that their academic child is being forced to take a language at GCSE despite having no aptitude or desire, chasing the Ebacc.

I thought BTEC & GCSE were comparable, not that BTEC followed after GCSE?

BTECs go Level 1, 2 and 3 then HNC and HND. Level 2 BTEC is equivalent to GCSEs, level A Levels and the HNC and D years one and 2 of uni.

I'm not sure some subjects should be GCSE or even A Level because either you can't cover the subject in depth enough to be useful or use it as a foundation for further study.

By useful I mean giving the student some practical skills.

So GCSE maths gives you practical skills and is a basis for A Level study so fulfills both of my personal criteria.

Does a GCSE Law do either? I don't know. I know some universities prefer you to have not done law at A Level if you want to do it as a uni subject.

I also believe there is a lot to be said for learning just for the enjoyment. Maybe the number of GCSEs taken by one student should be limited but with some timetabled 'other' courses, things like food hygiene certificate, first aid, learning a musical instrument.

I don't remember saying that about Music stillenacht but if I did it was a mistake!

Our local secondary schools all had an academic route (GCSEs) and a vocational route (BTECs) that you chose in addition to the core GCSEs. After the EBacc uproar their ratings slipped so they all got rid of the vocational route. I can guarantee that one by one they will all drop the non-GSCE subjects.

Dd wants to take Media Studies, Art and Drama if it involves more performance than writing and Expressive Arts. If they get rid of any of these and replace them with an academic subject I cannot see how she is going to manage. Dd might as well give up now.

question for wordfactory: you said you were involved in the Oxbridge access project. Which GCSE's are most valued and which are a no no re. Oxbridge? I'm asking because our eldest is doing GCSE options, is very bright (top of set and school for most things) and he's trying to choose between art and music, but I've encouraged not to so media (like her friend) in favour to geography, which she is excellent at, loves and is Surely a better GCSE option?

sorry about predictive text fail: she's a she not a he!

Read the Oxbridge admissions website. No such thing as facilitating subjects at GCSE (beyond the core three), what matters to Oxbridge is breadth of study and an outstanding overall profile of results.

Sorry websites didn't mean to imply there was only one!

I'm all in favour of academic subjects, but I don't see a problem with PE or Drama at all. It's not all practical/vocational. I admit I used to be a bit sniffy about PE until I talked to some friends of DD who do it. There are a lot of different skills involved - I think you have to pick 3-5 sports and show you can be competent - as well as the written exam. The craft of drama also seems to me to be an entirely respectable study, given our theatrical heritage from Marlowe onwards.

What next - downgrade Music GCSE because you have to - shock horror - play an instrument?

"Doesn't think that the fact that theatre has had a place in every type of civilisation since before the ancient Greeks is important. Doesn't think learning to express yourself is valuable. Doesn't see the value in the experience of performance. The value in teamwork, in rehearsal, in working towards a common goal. In the literature aspect of our subject. In developing creative thinking, in offering pupils the chance to create, emote, explore, discover in this particular way. In essay writing. In the study of practitioners who have culturally added to the world and the collective dramatic practice?"

This. This. This.

Agree wholeheartedly with everything Lottiedoubtie has said.

Thanks clayhanger

usually the subjects prefered are the usual suspects. However, there will be no problem at all with any applicant who has a GCSE in drama, or PE, or Media Studies provided it sits alonside the usual spread of academic subjects.

However, an applicant with GCSEs in drama and media studies and law would struggle. Unless they did fourteen or fifteen. Anmd then they might be asked why!!!

lottie I personally do think that drama/theatre studies should be a GCSE. However, the current syllabus would need to be and could easily be made to be more academic, more theoretical, less practical.

But I also think there is a place for craft based, performance arts. It's just that this shouldn't be a GCSE.

usually art and music are both considered rigorous. Music sits particularly well alongside maths, I believe, and art shows good time managemnet as I undertsnad it is horendously time consuming.

wordfactory has it right. As several people have pointed out, there's no inherent reason why Drama can't be as rigorous as you like: the study and of drama is precisely as rigorous as the analytic parts of EngLit or Music, and there's no particular reason why the performance elements can't be at least as challenging as those in Music.

However, the current syllabuses are problematic. Look at the Ed Excel Linear for 2012. There is no externally assessed written exam, and most of the internally assessed work is either groupwork or controlled assessment. Most centres will be as honest as the day is long, but you have to be naive in the extreme to think that this sort of course won't be subject to assessment problems in a significant minority of centres. The only externally assessed component is groupwork, and a student may be one of a group of up to nine and doesn't actually have to do any drama anyway (they can, for example, just make some masks).

Should Drama be a subject ranked amongst those seen as "academic"? Yes. Would anyone who's read the syllabus regard the Drama course I cite as equivalent in rigour to a course with externally assessed written work? No. The Drama community in schools needs to look at the schemes of work it wants to defend, and improve those.

Friday I'm not sure I entirely agree with all of your points there.

I do agree that the Edexcel course is poor, although despite being in a 'group of up to nine' each individual contribution IS assessed, and a spread of marks is expected.- I do however, far prefer the AQA GCSE.

I think the difficulty lies in that there is no reason why drama, PE, food etc could not be made rigorous.

All these disciplines have theories attached to them.

However, if these subjects were made equivalent to other more traditional subjects, then theless able pupils would not be able to access them.

So...