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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To be pretty uncomfortable with home circumcision

578 replies

EastofEast · 20/10/2013 20:31

We get on very well with our neighbours and are pretty close but I was a bit shocked today, one of those moments where you find you really have opposing views on something quite fundamental.

Neighbour has a (gorgeous) two week old boy. She knocked on the door earlier to return my car keys (went to get a new battery for hers in my car) and I mentioned her new ds was unsettled for the first time ever; joking maybe he wasn't the perfect baby after all. My baby is demanding much more vocal about her needs. She said it was because he was circumcised today. I must have looked a little put off, I don't agree with it at all, as she then said 'oh he's doing really well. We were lucky the doctor came to house to do this one, all the others had to go to a clinic'. I was stunned, I'm amazed you're allowed to do such a thing at home in such an unregulated way. Frankly I wouldn't allow any deliberate harm to come to a child that wasn't medically necessary, but considering some people do do it I thought the rules would be tighter. We're both from (different) backgrounds which circumcise, although I refused to change my son, and I knew she'd do it after a related chat about whether fgm was that bad over a coffee one day but it's still upset me a bit the way it's done. The poor little thing is grumpy with loads of adults around to celebrate the event passing him round and round at 8.30pm.

I know the circumcision vs no circumcision has been done already, and not everyone shares my strong views, but at home? Should this be ok? I can't think of other similar procedures happening in a similar environment.

OP posts:
SpecialAgentFreyPie · 21/10/2013 12:19

I never said enjoy. I think circumcision is child abuse.

My post was basically sarcastic. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

If I were to make such an abusive choice, as the OP asked I would do it in my home. Less people to judge as the people who would be there would agree with my choice, because whether I had 100 people or just DH and myself, we'd clearly be agreeing with the mutilation.

Hope that answers your question OP!

campion · 21/10/2013 12:23

Except it's bothering the next door neighbour,SpecialAgent (see OP).
She's meant to be minding her own business though, is she not?

Good old British cultural tradition, that.

SamG76 · 21/10/2013 12:26

It does seem that people are damned if they do or damned if they don't. If it's done in hospital, or by a doctor then complain that it's wasting NHS funds or time. If at home, then complain that it's not a sterile environment. If there are lots of people around, then complain it's voyeuristic,while if there aren't, claim it must be because the parents want to hide the pain the child is in. If there are religious rituals attached, then complain it's disgusting, while if there aren't, say that it's not a vital part of the religion and can be done away with.

WilsonFrickett · 21/10/2013 12:28

I'm not sure it's even offered on the NHS sam, unless it's for medical need???

SpecialAgentFreyPie · 21/10/2013 12:32

Except it's bothering the next door neighbour,SpecialAgent (see OP).
She's meant to be minding her own business though, is she not?

I wouldn't mind my business with child abuse. It may not be recognised (yet) but I certainly would cut someone out of my life who did something barbaric like this.

But I think now I better RTFT since now I've posted more than once. Blush My view won't change but it's always interesting to see what others think/believe.

Sallyingforth · 21/10/2013 12:33

In other words, Sam, MGM is wrong whatever the circumstances or location, and for any reason except medical need.

campion · 21/10/2013 12:37

I'm on your side, SpecialAgent. The people who sanction circumcision probably think smacking same child would be abuse (when older, obviously).

GwendolineMaryLacey · 21/10/2013 12:38

Alas they are all too old to report to social services as their children are long grown up. Sorry about that. You'll have to try another line.

And I don't really give a toss how long it's been going on for. Leave it till they're 13, give the boys the choice and then see how far your essential for belonging goes.

DropYourSword · 21/10/2013 13:11

Can I just point out that babies can't consent to or decline ANYTHING, so I don't understand that argument from anyone. You could say then same thing about vaccinations.

FoxMulder · 21/10/2013 13:14

Not really. Vaccinations are done to stop the child getting a disease. I'm not really clear on what circumcisions are for.

lljkk · 21/10/2013 13:19

Stop bullying CoteAzur. I don't agree with circumcision or maybe half of what CoteAzur usually says on MN but I'll stand up for her now. She hasn't said anything unreasonable here. She related a personal anecdote why she can't share the dominant thread horror. Don't leap on her just because she dares to shrug her shoulders based on personal experience.

I just wondered, what country was it in, Cote, when you saw the 6-7yo boys circ'd?

CoteDAzur · 21/10/2013 13:29

Thanks, lljkk Thanks

I didn't think I was saying anything terribly controversial, either. My entire extended family has been called disgusting and without "a hint of humanity" on this thread and I have personally been called a liar (re lack of anaesthesia). And I haven't even circumcised DS. So I'm really finding the hostility on is this thread unreasonable.

CoteDAzur · 21/10/2013 13:32

It was in Turkey, btw. Things may have changed now but 30-35 years ago, circumcision was done around the age of 6 or so - before puberty but after early childhood, presumably so boys understand what is going on. (Prepares for onslaught of "Waaah how dare they do this to fully aware children who will forever be traumatised?!?" Wink)

umiaisha · 21/10/2013 13:35

Cote - DH was circumcised in the ME at the age of 5 with no anaesthetic. He is still alive to tell the tale and remains very pro circumcision!

DropYourSword · 21/10/2013 13:39

FoxI I agree it's not exactly comparable as there are benefits to vaccinations. I was just meaning that I don't understand the whole they haven't consented argument because babies don't consent to anything. And parents make the decisions they think are best at the time, even if we don't agree with them. If a baby went on to become a vegan, would they have had issues because they've had vaccinations which might contain products they would decline to accept. Or if they had a reason to a vaccination.

CoteDAzur · 21/10/2013 13:40

"Vaccinations are done to stop the child getting a disease. I'm not really clear on what circumcisions are for."

Vaccinations are (or sometimes, not done) for the benefit of the child without the child's consent and involve passing pain. There is a very small chance of permanent damage. Circumcisions are also done for the benefit of the child (social, lower chance of STD & penile cancer) without the child's consent and involve passing pain. As with vaccination, there is a very small chance of permanent damage (correctable, for the most part, unlike vaccine damage).

The analogy is perfectly valid. You don't see it as such because you are used to thinking of vaccines as perfectly normal and circumcision as something only Muslim & Jewish child abusers do.

DropYourSword · 21/10/2013 13:40

Or a reaction even!

CoteDAzur · 21/10/2013 13:45

"DH was circumcised in the ME at the age of 5 with no anaesthetic. He is still alive to tell the tale and remains very pro circumcision!"

I'm not surprised but Wilson will be. She thinks I'm lying re no anaesthetic Hmm

Funny how many generations of men in the US and elsewhere around the world are circumcised and are pro-circumcision. In fact, I wonder why there has never been any revolt against the practice, with men marching and demanding an end to circumcision, anywhere in the world.

MistressIggi · 21/10/2013 13:46

Surely teaching your children to use condoms would be of greater benefit regarding preventing stds than circumcising them.

CoteDAzur · 21/10/2013 13:48

The two practices are not mutually exclusive.

I agree with you, though.

FoxMulder · 21/10/2013 14:10

Actually, the only people who I know are circumcised are not Jewish or Muslim so I don't think it's 'something only Muslim & Jewish child abusers do'. I didn't even know this was a Muslim 'thing', as my nephew is Muslim but is not circumcised.

It does seem to be the case that circumcised men aren't against the practice, but similarly I've never heard of an un-circumcised man putting himself forward for it.

I guess I just can't get my head around wanting to surgically alter your perfect newborn child. But then, I'm not a part of that culture so I don't suppose I would ever understand.

valiumredhead · 21/10/2013 15:11

It sounds like we had a similar experience to you WilsonSad

WilsonFrickett · 21/10/2013 15:15

Valium Sad it was horrible all round. Poor wee guy. That's why I really can't get my head round why anyone would do it if it wasn't medically necessary.

Cote I apologise for saying I didn't believe you. But the rest of my posts still stand.

valiumredhead · 21/10/2013 15:43

I know Wilson Sad The only thing that makes it marginally better imo is if it is done very very young so there's less to remove iykwim? I still wouldn't have it done unless necessary though, and I was quite keen when I was pregnant tbh but soon changed my mind once he was in my arms.

candycoatedwaterdrops · 21/10/2013 17:37

This research has been called into question- observing Jewish women are likely to have a lower rate of cervical cancer because they are likely to have had fewer sexual partners than average.

A more recent study has proven that to be untrue. They did systemic literature review and found that true of women who do observe the religion in that way. They expected to see a rise but indeed, have not yet.

Either way, I wouldn't circumcise my (hypothetical) son/s. I am Jewish, so I'd expect a major family fall out but maybe I'll just stick to owning dogs! Wink