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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To be pretty uncomfortable with home circumcision

578 replies

EastofEast · 20/10/2013 20:31

We get on very well with our neighbours and are pretty close but I was a bit shocked today, one of those moments where you find you really have opposing views on something quite fundamental.

Neighbour has a (gorgeous) two week old boy. She knocked on the door earlier to return my car keys (went to get a new battery for hers in my car) and I mentioned her new ds was unsettled for the first time ever; joking maybe he wasn't the perfect baby after all. My baby is demanding much more vocal about her needs. She said it was because he was circumcised today. I must have looked a little put off, I don't agree with it at all, as she then said 'oh he's doing really well. We were lucky the doctor came to house to do this one, all the others had to go to a clinic'. I was stunned, I'm amazed you're allowed to do such a thing at home in such an unregulated way. Frankly I wouldn't allow any deliberate harm to come to a child that wasn't medically necessary, but considering some people do do it I thought the rules would be tighter. We're both from (different) backgrounds which circumcise, although I refused to change my son, and I knew she'd do it after a related chat about whether fgm was that bad over a coffee one day but it's still upset me a bit the way it's done. The poor little thing is grumpy with loads of adults around to celebrate the event passing him round and round at 8.30pm.

I know the circumcision vs no circumcision has been done already, and not everyone shares my strong views, but at home? Should this be ok? I can't think of other similar procedures happening in a similar environment.

OP posts:
MajorieDawes · 24/10/2013 13:34

whyayepetal

Since you haven't seen the baby's medical notes, perhaps you shouldn't jump to conclusions? You might be interested to note that circumcised baby boys have a LOWER incidence of UTIs than non circumcised so possibly the mother is quite right to be indignant.

CoteDAzur · 24/10/2013 13:37

"what was Gods motivation supposed to be?"

If I believed in God, I would have thought he was communicating with the people of that period in a language that they could understand. Since they didn't know about microbes etc, he must have said stuff life "You do what I say because I like it that way"

"I mean if it was a health cleanliness thing then shouldn't God have been back more recently to say 'actually you can stop that now you have antibiotics etc.'"

And you think that is a clever response? Hmm What now, antibiotics have been found to work against viruses? There is an antibiotic that works against HIV, for example?

"If he was demanding a sacrifice..then erm...well...I can't really think of a way to express how I would feel about an omnipotent all powerful being that can't survive without worship"

  1. Sacrifice isn't the same thing as worship
  2. Yes, Abrahamic God seems to demand sacrifice
  3. Nobody said God wouldn't survive if nobody worshipped Him
MinesAPintOfTea · 24/10/2013 13:43

MajorieDawes a lifetime reduced risk of UTIs may well be the case, but infections are more likely in the immediate aftermath of surgery.

And I'm all for adults altering their own bodies to demonstrate their own commitment to faith. I'm not for them altering their children's bodies to demonstrate it.

BackOnlyBriefly · 24/10/2013 13:47

Nothing like eternal hell fire is predicted for the uncircumcised.

Am pleased to hear it, but what about those who fail to teach their children to do what muhammad says. Isn't there a penalty for that?

MajorieDawes · 24/10/2013 13:49

But we don't know if it's a post-operative infection in this neighbour's child, do we?

The bible commands Jews to circumcise their boys at 8 days old. As it happens, circumcising newborns is associated with a far far lower risk of complications and discomfort than at a later age.

The few circumcised men I've asked about this (not dinner table conversation!) seem to be very pleased they were done as newborns and feel their parents made the right call. This would certanly influence my decision making if I had a baby boy.

BackOnlyBriefly · 24/10/2013 13:51

Oh and I think I may have brought this up before, but how does god saying "oh that foreskin will come off as it will cause disease" square with "God must exist! everything is too perfectly designed for it to be chance".

Did god really build in a major design flaw?

MajorieDawes · 24/10/2013 13:53

Like the appendix? Or the trachea being in front of the oesophagus?

Design flaws like that?

Not sure how religious people reconcile the two but the foreskin isn't the only possible design flaw.

MajorieDawes · 24/10/2013 13:58

Could it be that some Jewish people have cynically decided that claiming anti-semitism gives them an added advantage?

Wow, just wow.

HazleNutt · 24/10/2013 14:00

Some circumcised men think their parents made the right call? Out of curiosity, do you think most un-circumcised men think their parents were wrong not to do it?

CoteDAzur · 24/10/2013 14:03

"Did god really build in a major design flaw?"

Like that would be the only inconsistency in the whole Abrahamic God story?

BackOnlyBriefly · 24/10/2013 14:04

MajorieDawes true, but I thought this one was particularly embarrassing as they seem to be claiming god told them to correct it with a knife.

Also now I come to think of it back then god didn't tell non jews to circumcise did he. That was a bit mean of him since he knew it would be more healthy for them too.

curlew · 24/10/2013 14:04

"The few circumcised men I've asked about this (not dinner table conversation!) seem to be very pleased they were done as newborns and feel their parents made the right call. This would certanly influence my decision making if I had a baby boy"

What were their reasons for thinking their parents made the right call?

SamG76 · 24/10/2013 14:06

posters who are being rude about Abraham (which of course is their right), should note that for at least 1500 years after he lived neighbouring cultures and also the inhabitants of this island were merrily butchering their children and others as human sacrifices, something that was forbidden to the Hebrews. He was pretty enlightened by the standards of the day....

MajorieDawes · 24/10/2013 14:07

I guess it would depend on their cultural/religious background although to be honest, I haven't got a clue about whether uncircumcised men would want to be circumcised. I'm sure you could find a few.

BackOnlyBriefly · 24/10/2013 14:07

CoteDAzur well yeah, but this is the one we are discussing.

MajorieDawes I just saw that you didn't like my comment that some might take advantage and claim anti-semitism to stifle disagreement. Since I have some experience of this I feel perfectly ok about saying it.

CoteDAzur · 24/10/2013 14:07

You know, circumcised men may be thinking their parents didn't make the right call. That would be why they don't circumcise their own boys.

Oh wait...

MajorieDawes · 24/10/2013 14:09

Curlew

The reasons are cultural and religious (ie they wanted to be circumcised men) as well as aesthetic/cleaner/healthier (although that's probably cultural) and also pleased that it was done when the procedure was relatively simple and straightforward (ie as newborns).

CoteDAzur · 24/10/2013 14:09

God may very well have built in a design flaw and then expected people to suffer a bit of pain and show their obedience to Him by cutting it off according to his demands. It would certainly fit in with the rest of the Abrahamic God story - demanding sacrifice & obedience etc.

Can you really not think any of this on your own?

MinesAPintOfTea · 24/10/2013 14:09

MajorieDawes no we don't, but an infection within a week of surgery is pretty likely to be related.

And there are other parts of the human body which may cause problems, but we only remove them once they are causing problems, not from a newborn who can't consent.

SamG76 · 24/10/2013 14:09

BOB - anyone who knows the slightest bit about Judaism will know that God imposes very few obligations on non-Jews. It's not a religion that claims to be the only pathway to salvation, which is why, incidentally, it doesn't seek converts.

MajorieDawes · 24/10/2013 14:10

Backonlybriefly

I found your comment offensive but as long as you have had experience of it Hmm

It would be a bit like saying Jews tend to thieve because I have had experience of Jews stealing from me. But as long as you're happy with it, that's waht counts.

HazleNutt · 24/10/2013 14:11

If an uncircumcised man wants to be circumcised, he can easily have it done. It is much more difficult to restore foreskin and impossible to make the penis fully back into an uncircumcised one. Which is certainly one argument for letting the owner of the penis decide over what he wants to do with it.

BackOnlyBriefly · 24/10/2013 14:13

Can you really not think any of this on your own?

Cote if you mean me of course I can. I'm trying to draw the attention of others to inconsistencies. If you don't want me posting just say the word.

Not that I'd take any notice, but it would be nice to know where you stand.

MajorieDawes · 24/10/2013 14:13

Well, the owners of penises that I personally know are very glad they were circumcised as newborns.

It's actually nowhere near as easy to circumcise as an adult.

MajorieDawes · 24/10/2013 14:15

MajorieDawes no we don't, but an infection within a week of surgery is pretty likely to be related.

I'm sure the doctors can tell if it is a post operative infection or not. This may be why the mother is getting indignant. Who knows? You don't, I don't and the well meaning neighbour doesn't.