To not understand why teachers should object to performance related pay?

[Dolcelatte]

After all, it happens in most other sectors, so why should teachers be any different. I am not trying to be controversial and there will undoubtedly be others with a better understanding of the issues. However, I don't understand the objections in principle. Why shouldn't remuneration be dependent upon performance?

Starlight
^'But I cannot predict when these problems/issues will occur.'
With data you could.^
Absolute and utter bollocks.

If that was the case there would be no crime because the Police would with data be there at the time. And the fire engines would with data know which houses did not have smoke detectors.

I love numbers. I love statistical analysis.

But NO DATA SET can predict the hormonal balance of 1,500 teenagers tomorrow morning as they jump off the buses at their school.

'Working in education right now is like being in a dystopian sci fi film where there is no fixed reality'

You know what? I don't disagree with this. However I do think that performance related pay will help anchor practice and outcomes in reality.

*Add message | Report | Message poster sashh Sun 20-Oct-13 14:49:

SO you are happy for your SLT salary to drop bellow that of your friends who are in 'quite tough' schools?

I am happy to see my friends who teach in tougher schools earn more than me, they work harder , their emotional wellbeing takes more of a battering. The higher wage may encourage more good teachers to work in those schools.

Yes, because data and numbers tell you everything you need to know about individual people in a variety of complex, personalised, individual situations. Cripes.

Police know through data, where to place their additional officers, what time they should intervene in a drug dealing gang.

They keep data on their performance in terms of outcomes, reducing crime in high crime areas etc. In order to do so they need to be able to predict where crime will occur, and when it is most likely to.

They cannot prevent or control everything and nor as a teacher can you.

But you can improve outcomes and you can demonstrate that with data and analysis.

What data should teachers use to predict if the 3 part, 5 part or 6 part lesson is en vogue with 'the man' this week? Or whether to produce a 3 page or 1 page lesson plan? Or how many minutes Gove has prescribed is 'good practice' to to talk in a lesson? Or whether 'the man' wants self assessment, peer assessment or next step marking this week? Are you aiming for 5 C+ GCSE's, the ebacc or whatever other thing Gove announces?

as a fun fact, data led to sapphire unit of the police no criming reports of rape.

woohoo data.

Part of the problem is that people who have never been teachers don't really understand how PRP is a lot trickier to instigate fairly in education. As soon as it was mentioned at a staff meeting at my school, the teaching staff knew their targets would be nigh on impossible. Just started the new year's round of PM, and lo and behold, impossible targets.

I'd like to point out to non-teachers that:

• teachers already undergo Performance Management with official lesson observations, targets and so on. We didn't fly by the seats of our pants you know!
• teachers tend to have an inbuilt distrust of the way we are measured - look at Ofsted constantly changing the goalposts
• schools are generally cash strapped. Heads are going to be looking for ways to save money

I'd also like to point out that the new system in my county may well lead to stagnation. We used to be able to move from school to school and be guaranteed the same pay for the same job (primary teaching, no extra responsibilities). Now schools can advertise a particular 'band' pay - fine for those lower down, but for those at the top of what used to be Main Scale, like me, I may well have to take a pay cut to move schools.

'But NO DATA SET can predict the hormonal balance of 1,500 teenagers tomorrow morning as they jump off the buses at their school.'

Why would you take data on this?

Of all of these boys that jump of the bus, could you predict on a scale of 1-10 the likeliness of disruptiveness of each of them during registration?

If you were given a TA for an hour would you know how best to use them, which group to place him/her with?

Would you be able to predict which child will be most likely to hand their homework in on time, which will not? Which will come up with the funniest excuse that you will share in the classroom?

Some of this information will be meaningless, but some of it will be essential to hand over to a supply teacher or maternity cover.

The data that will most inform your ability to increase the outcomes for the individuals is what you will need to use to demonstrate your worth for a pay review imo.

Starlight
I met the Police Commissioner for my county yesterday.
What you think 'big data' can do is light years away from the reality.
I also met a professor of Governance and Empirical policy making.
What you think 'big data' can do is about ten years in the future.

So yes, start analysing the data NOW to work out what criteria will be good for setting up teachers PRP
BUT
do not start the PRP then define the criteria.
As that is acting on faith, not data

and as you say, there should be data to support decisions

'As soon as it was mentioned at a staff meeting at my school, the teaching staff knew their targets would be nigh on impossible.'

I don't doubt it. But that isn't the fault of data or performance related pay. It is the fault of the implementers or the target-setters.

'do not start the PRP then define the criteria.
As that is acting on faith, not data'

Absolutely. You need to firstly define the purpose of data collection. No-one wants to collect it for the sake of it. Teachers should be excited about being able to demonstrate their performance towards outcomes undisputed. It needs to be clearly defined and bring with it excitement about what meticulous recording can achieve and if done properly can finally give teachers the demonstrable evidence of their worth that no-one including Gove, can argue with.

"Why would you take data on this?

Of all of these boys that jump of the bus, could you predict on a scale of 1-10 the likeliness of disruptiveness of each of them during registration?"

Because according to your posts it would enable to teacher to predict which children where going to have meltdowns during the school day.

Why does it need to be big data?

(not really sure what is meant by big data anyway)

I'd say the best prediction of meltdowns was previous meltdowns and I would certainly hope that you were keeping records of that.

Of course poor performing teachers will leave other than through dismissal. But 17 out of a workforce of c450,000 is still a pitiful number. By comparison, over a five year period 25 civil servants were dismissed from the Home Office for poor performance out of a workforce of about 25,000. Still a very very low percentage, but when the Home Office looks like it is being very tough in comparison I would suggest that there is something amiss with the performance management process in teaching.

Starlight
not really sure what is meant by big data anyway
In that case I suggest you go and read a bit as without understanding the issue, your pontifications are as invalid as Gove's

bring with it excitement about what meticulous recording can achieve and if done properly can finally give teachers the demonstrable evidence of their worth that no-one including Gove, can argue with.

But Gove believes.
All of the data is there that unqualified teachers are a bad thing but he believes so ignores all the data.
What on earth makes you think he'll pay any attention to another set?

Families
Dismissal is a very expensive way to get rid of teachers and schools avoid it at all costs.
There are much cheaper and more effective ways of edging out teachers who are not performing that all schools use on a regular basis.
Look at the number of teachers leaving teaching at odd times in their careers - that is where you'll find all the missing 'dismissals'

records of meltdowns will help teachers not to repeat situations that could cause meltdowns but not new situations that arise to cause meltdowns, and only if the situation is able to be controlled by the teacher.

'Starlight
not really sure what is meant by big data anyway
'In that case I suggest you go and read a bit as without understanding the issue, your pontifications are as invalid as Gove's''

Don't be ridiculous. I understand plenty about data in education as that was my field. I have no idea what the poster was referring to when mentioning 'big' data as it sounds like a sound byte and more professional jargon and I would hope that a system of performance related pay was a good move towards removal of the nonsensical woolly wording.

I have never seen any decent data on unqualified teachers performance only projected opinions and I have seen loads and loads of implied data from local authorities used to make claims that the data just does not support. They are no better than Gove and imo in many cases much worse.

But when we see big data indicating (for example) that gcse results are rising every year people i.e Gove don't say 'my god teachers are improving, let's reward them!' they construct a new scoreboard to underline how shit teachers are.

Dismissal is cheaper, surely, than early retirement? That's the classic "edging someone out" tactic, which does get them out of the classroom, but also costs money as they are drawing their pension early.

I think it's more meaningful to look at retention rates for teachers and the numbers who leave before 5 years of service because they end up hating the job.

i don't hate the job, or the kids- i hate myself. i have no doubt i will be leaving (this will be my last year i think). maybe i will tutor? i dont know.

Families
Early retirement can only be used for those over 50 ....
And actually, how many private sector businesses actually 'dismiss' people.
They reorganise / restructure / relocate to the same end ....

I have never seen any decent data on unqualified teachers performance
www.ofsted.gov.uk/inspection-reports/find-inspection-report/provider/ELS/138776
Al-Madinah School.