WIBU? Asking school to not use Mr and Mrs. R Bonkers

[bonkersLFDT20]

Got a letter from DS1's secondary school.
It was addressed to Mr and Mrs R Bonkers
R is my husband's initial.

I've just written to them suggesting they use more a more modern way to address parents e.g Mr and Mrs Bonkers or Mr R. Bonkers & Mrs M Bonkers.

WIBU?

I agree that Mr and Mrs R. Bonkers is outdated and sexist.

But I have a question related to the subsequent discussion about changing names. Why do some women feel their maiden name is their father's name - but they don't seem to feel that their husband's name is their FILs name?

Or put another way, why don't more men say, "my surname is just my father's name, and he's a bit of a crusty old codger, I'll take my wife's name when we marry"?

"Or put another way, why don't more men say, "my surname is just my father's name, and he's a bit of a crusty old codger, I'll take my wife's name when we marry"?"

Because people are being disingenuous when they say "it's no big deal".

It's also important to remember that women tend to have last names that are ugly, clumsy, difficult to spell and don't go with their children's first names. Men's last names, however, are always euphonious, easy to spell and sound lovely with the children's first names. True fact.

Married, I thought the usual etiquette argument was that Ms meant you were divorced?

Ms. does not mean you are divorced. Where did that idea come from?
It means that it is nobody's business what your marital status is.

That email from the school really pisses me off. I would be so tempted to write back something along the lines of:

"The usage you refer to is not a matter of grammar; it is a matter of societal convention. In lieu of 'grammar,' I commend to the school a bit of history: the societal practice of a woman's name completely disappearing into her husband's is a vestige of the common law doctrine of coverture, whereby a woman's legal existence was entirely subsumed in her husband's when she married; in other words, she became his property."

But to be honest, I probably wouldn't do it while my children were still attending the school.

Of course Ms doesn't mean you're divorced!!!!!

But if it did that would be even worse! It would mean that there was no way a woman could be addressed formally that didn't involve revealing her marital status. While men.......

I didn't say Ms indicated one was divorced. I said Mrs my first name, his last name did and it does.

The bit that really interests me is the comment about a woman's legal existence being subsumed by her husband. When I married I was earning six figures, owned my own home in London, etc., etc.. I would not have married if I had not been sufficiently confident in my husband's decency and niceness to have allowed myself to be subsumed by his presence. I married of my own free will and was entirely independent. Had I not been entirely confident in the union I would have said "NO". That is what equality is about. Objective, independent choices and it is they that empower women not flammery about taking names, etc.

Scone, I know it doesn't. But it's quite often said in here that it does and I've never heard of Mrs HerFirstName HisSurname being supposedly a divorcee before.

This is why I can't see it as something a true feminist could do

So a person who changes their name is not a feminist this is what you have said. SO I am just asking you to continue to define what makes a feminist. All of the things I mentioned in my post are things that prop up the patriarchy, but I have frequently seen Glorida Steneim in make up... I'd love to see her reaction if someone said she wasn't a feminist.

Make up is designed to make women look a certain way and isn't an expectation of men.

Shaving legs/pubes/pits is designed to make women look a certain way and not expected of men..

So I am asking you are women who consider themselves feminist but wear make up and shave their legs true feminist?

I don't wear make up because I don't want my daughter to feel wmen need to.. I dont shave for that reason too despite being practically 80% chimp I am not going to say a woman who does shave can't be a feminist. I would expect her to understand that her choice to shave is not a feminist choice.

Every time you shop in a major grocery store you are supporting a system that advertises men are idiots that cant do the shopping and that mothers women should be martyrs to the cause.

Many of us make choices that could be seen as unfeminist for the sake of an easier life and I am more than happy for you to debate whether or not changing my name was a feminist choice.. I agree with you. It wasn't. I really debated with myself abut it and often wish I hadn't. The decision to do it was specific to my needs though and wasn't because it was an ugly name or any other excuse. My father was an abusive ass hole too.. it wasn't his name though it was my name. I won't make excuses for my name but I will argue that I am a true feminist to the fucking end. because I am.

I always put peoples first names on letters,never even thought about all this shit!

I remember asking mil to email me all dhs side of the families addresses so i could send them christmas cards,she did the whole Mr and Mrs intial surname thing,i tohught fuck that,and just put John and Tracy,Karen and Sean,etc.

I do wonder why so many people insist on thinking Ms means divorced..argh drives me crazy. I wonder if the creators of Ms. Magazine realize people think it's only for divorced women

Ms. certainly does not mean divorced in the US. It tends to be the default title, especially in a business and professional setting.

You know, the correct way to address someone is actually by the name they choose to use.

Those of you saying that the correct way to address a married couple is Mr and Mrs HisInitial HisSurname are only correct if the couple themselves choose to address themselves in that way.

I choose to use Ms, as I feel that my marital status is my concern and no-one else's. Why should a woman have to publicly display her marital status when a man doesn't?

And I still have the name I was born with. Might be my dad's surname, but as our society is in the process of changing, then changes need to start somewhere. A few generations and no-one will be worrying that women are carrying a man's surname.

And I think that now I've had this name for 45 years, it's rightfully as much mine as it is my dad's.

(As an aside, I've never heard of the idea that Mrs HerName HisSurname indicated a divorced woman; round here it simply indicates that women prefer to use their own first name)

I thought the schools reply was patronising - we are correct,but hey,you want us to do something else,we'll try...

Our (state secondary) school letters come to Mr G and Mrs C Lifehuh - not difficult really.
I use my married name professionally,but wouldn't dream of working as Mrs G Lifehuh. My name isn't G...

I'm well aware that in the past Mrs C Lifehuh would have indicated I was divorced or widowed,but times change and usage moves on.My grandmother and her generation used it like that,but my grandmother was born when Victoria was still on the throne,so I don't feel that says a lot about how we should address each other now.

"That was some passive aggressive shit and what's more it was wrong."

Well, whaddya know, Debretts do suggest Mrs HerFirstName HisSurname for a divorcee.

But they also strongly advise that you ask the recipient how she wishes to be addressed. Which seems like a good idea.

debretts

Shall I just cut and paste this thread in my response to the school's reply?

I was just going to thank them for taking the time to respond, but now feel I want to correct them on the grammar/etiquette thing.

I might just thank them for changing my salutation and ignore the rest. I suppose if I feel strongly I should take it up with..I don't know...the governors, Michael Gove?

Ringa, why were you responsible for getting names and addresses and sorting out cards for your husband's relatives?

Michael Gove is married to Sarah Vine. He might get it (first time for everything).

Ringa, why were you responsible for getting names and addresses and sorting out cards for your husband's relatives?

whole other bloody thread ^ that

Yes OP, cut and paste.

I really want to keep to tradition.I took my husbands name. Am very happy with the traditional use of his initial too.

Please keep Mr and Mrs DH Bowlersarm on your correspondence to me.

Bowlersarm, I'm genuinely interested why tradition is so important to you?

This thread has been playing on my mind since I first read it.

The thing is, I was taught as a child that it was staggeringly rude to send a letter without a title on the envelope, to address a married woman as Ms, or to address an envelope to a married couple as anything other than Mr & Mrs R Bonkers (to use the OP's example). And before anyone asks if I'm 105, no I'm not, I'm only in my 30s

Until reading this thread yesterday I had no idea that by doing so I could be offending anyone, because I have been taught that this is just good manners. So what on earth do I do now? How do I work out who wants to be referred to in each way? How does everyone else do it? I mean, its easy to say 'well, change to the 'modern' way of doing it, because that's the right thing to do' but then I'm just offending different people. This is a total minefield.

Hmm I'm not sure make-up and shaving are the nub of the issue though. As I said, feminism is not about shaving, it's about equality.

Men shave. Men wear make-up. Men titivate and enjoy clothes. We should be working towards equality in these things so that no one is pressured into or expected to do particular things but everyone feels equally free to (within what's reasonable/not harmful to others etc. obviously.)

I would argue that tweaking and primping your body in various ways and caring about your appearance is part of being human for most people - as you would probably agree if either a male or a female colleague of yours didn't wash, clean their clothes, brush their teeth, do their hair etc for a few days.

It's madness to go down the road of saying a woman shouldn't care about her appearance because it's all for men's benefit and therefore not feminist. Firstly, that's bollocks - it's not all for men's benefit as anyone who is into fashion (or indeed lesbian) could tell you.

Secondly, if men are allowed to choose the clothes they like and drag a razor across their skin because that's how they want to look, so should women be.

It's about equality - equality of status, respect and opportunity, equality in law, financially, at work and socially. It's not about being or not being allowed to do thing a, b or c.