What's that thing people do where they goad you and goad you until finally they get a reaction...?

[TattyDevine]

Long story short I have just opted out of a social situation where a couple of male friends were goading me, I was trying to ignore their silliness (they were a bit drunk) and eventually I just said, look, would you think it would be acceptable to be saying that about one of your family members to which you then get "don't twist my words" "we are only trying to wind you up" etc etc.

(For a bit of background they were making jokes about there being no such thing as rape in uni and how they are all gagging for it and how you should be able to buy rohypnol in the student union café. This conversation came about because I mentioned how pleased I was with the security of my 19 year old niece's uni accommodation)

I know there are various things called stonewalling and stuff but does this type of scenario as described above, picking and picking and picking until finally they get a rise then blaming it on you for being oversensitive, does that have a word? Or are they just c*nts, lol.

I could do with some help actually in how to manage these two "friends" and I know there is relationships but I'm all about the traffic right not. Go on Mumsnet sisterhood, give me some strength, my darling husband wants me to go back to this holiday site we are all staying and face these two sexist drunken oiks

"Why Rape Jokes Aren't Funny" Time Machine.
"To all those who don’t think the rape joke was a problem, or rape jokes are a problem.

I get it, you’re a decent guy. I can even believe it. You’ve never raped anybody. You would NEVER rape anybody. You’re upset that all these feminists are trying to accuse you of doing something or connect you to doing something that, as far as you’re concerned, you’ve never done and would never condone.

And they’ve told you about triggers, and PTSD, and how one in six women is a survivor, and you get it. You do. But you can’t let every time someone gets all upset get in the way of you having a good time, right?

So fine. If all those arguments aren’t going anything for you, let me tell you this. And I tell you this because I genuinely believe you mean it when you say you don’t want to hurt anybody, and you don’t see the harm, and that it’s important to you to do your best to be a decent and good person. And I genuinely believe you when you say you would never associate with a rapist and you think rape really is a very bad thing.

Because this is why I refuse to take rape jokes sitting down-

6% of college age men, slightly over 1 in 20, will admit to raping someone in anonymous surveys, as long as the word “rape” isn’t used in the description of the act.

6% of Penny Arcade’s target demographic will admit to actually being rapists when asked.

A lot of people accuse feminists of thinking that all men are rapists. That’s not true. But do you know who think all men are rapists?

Rapists do.

They really do. In psychological study, the profiling, the studies, it comes out again and again.

Virtually all rapists genuinely believe that all men rape, and other men just keep it hushed up better. And more, these people who really are rapists are constantly reaffirmed in their belief about the rest of mankind being rapists like them by things like rape jokes, that dismiss and normalize the idea of rape.

If one in twenty guys is a real and true rapist, and you have any amount of social activity with other guys like yourself, really cool guy, then it is almost a statistical certainty that one time hanging out with friends and their friends, playing Halo with a bunch of guys online, in a WoW guild, or elsewhere, you were talking to a rapist. Not your fault. You can’t tell a rapist apart any better than anyone else can. It’s not like they announce themselves.

But, here’s the thing. It’s very likely that in some of these interactions with these guys, at some point or another someone told a rape joke. You, decent guy that you are, understood that they didn’t mean it, and it was just a joke. And so you laughed.

And, decent guy who would never condone rape, who would step in and stop rape if he saw it, who understands that rape is awful and wrong and bad, when you laughed?

That rapist who was in the group with you, that rapist thought that you were on his side. That rapist knew that you were a rapist like him. And he felt validated, and he felt he was among his comrades.

You. The rapist’s comrade.

And if that doesn’t make you feel sick to your stomach, if that doesn’t make you want to throw up, if that doesn’t disturb you or bother you or make you feel like maybe you should at least consider not participating in that kind of humor anymore…

Well, maybe you aren’t as opposed to rapists as you claim."

I think the above covers everything you need to say to these idiots.

Regarding my husband, his mistake last night was not coming into the room I'd retreated to check on me and get my side of the story of why I had retreated but resumed playing host to the two dickheads assuming I was reading or asleep when in fact I was quietly fuming but didn't see the point in turning it into a scene as I couldn't really get any sense out of anyone. This was an error on his part and he's pretty sorry he didn't, because he probably would have put them out and told them to go sober up and apologise in the morning and we could have at least tried to resume some kind of evening together.

Thanks for the summing up Tatty. I do think it's odd to leave to go home when you've paid for a holiday place for the weekend. They were drunk and obnoxious and in my world you tell them they're the ones to get out, you don't leave yourself. You and your husband could have sent them packing with minimum fuss. How they processed it the next day in their minds would be up to them - if they are fundamentally decent they'd realise what they'd done. If not, no great loss as who wants to spend time with wankers like that anyway. A quiet word with their wives the next day about the content of the conversation and how they were playing with you would have been sufficient in my view. I just think you leaving was more of an over-reaction than having the courage of your convictions what they were being vile and needed pulling up on it - at least to the extent that you and your DH could say you're out of order, the night is over, please go home now. It didn't need to be a big scene.

The article CeliaFate links to is very interesting. I like the idea of using, "You do realise that rapists believe that all men are rapists and when you laugh at rape 'jokes' or rape 'banter' you give them affirmation."

Personally, even though the research doesn't really back this, I would be happy to muse aloud, "Rapists use this kind of conversation to test the reactions of other men because they believe that most men have raped or are rapists. They also like to observe the discomfort of women in the group, doubly so if other men join in with the goading."

In my book so called jokes or banter about rape make the jokers or banterers at least distant second cousins to actual rapists.

Tabliope why don't you at least make the effort to read the OP's posts.

Talibope

So I missed that bit about her telling her husband she was leaving - minor point in the whole weird scenario. How bizarre he let her go

What else should he have done? Lock me up? Handcuff me? I'm a 36 year old mother of two, not a child

Presumably she hadn't drunk anything all evening or called a taxi if she had That's right

So her DH then went back to socialising with the two arseholes after they'd upset his wife so much she felt she had to leave? No, they'd gone back to their own apartments, I left after they had vacated our apartment.

Did he tell them? Not at that point because they had gone to bed but they worked it out this morning when they came over to apologise and saw the car gone. When they asked where Tatty is, my husband told them that I had left and was fairly upset and offended about the conversation that happened last night.

Bizarre as I said before. Apart from that I don't think I've got the wrong end of the stick with anything else Chipping. No need to cut and paste anything, no one's asking you to do that No need, I'm onto it, I hope that clarifies it a bit.

This thread is moving fast. I was referring to CeliaFate's original post. Thanks for expanding on that. OP you are a nicer, more patient person than me.

Crossed post Talibop - yes, I didn't have to leave of course. I just decided I wanted to. The thought of going back to the serene haven of my own bedroom, not dealing with hung over sheepish dickheads until I am ready to do so etc was appealing and I don't regret it!

As for the holiday thing and paying for it, sure, but I booked and paid for a holiday to have a good time. I wasn't having a good time so I left. You could say its a waste of money but luckily we are in a fortunate financial position so I can just choose what I feel like rather than feeling like I have to make the most of a bad situation. That's pure luck really.

So I'll head back later. If I'm still not having a good time, well, I might even go home again! But I'm pretty sure the immature tossers are willing to make amends so I will let them extend an olive branch for the sake of the overall group including the children but might just give those 2 a wide berth during any future social situations where they have had a skinful and have an attitude on them.

Fwiw, I think the best response to this kind of thing is to ignore it - yawn, and change the subject, preferably to something as neutral as possible. "Anyone see Corrie last night?" That kind of thing. Never ever rise to it because there's no point in trying to reason with people like that. They don't deserve to be reasoned with - you only reason with people who are intelligent enough to understand reason.

northlight, do fuck off with your sarcasm. I did read the OP's posts as I said to Chipping. FFS I missed one minor point about her DH knowing she was going home, yet I'm still a bit confused with it as she also says she didn't go straight away and he didn't come into the room she retreated to. I'm guessing he left her for a while and somehow they then spoke about it, but when is not clear.

Actually Tatty has just posted she left AFTER the two men left which confuses me even more. What a strange thing to do in my view. I thought you left Tatty as they were still there. Strange to leave after the event in the middle of the night. If you'd felt strongly about it you could have left in the morning or all gone out for the morning as a family to have a bit of space. You might be 36 and of course no one is for a minute suggesting your DH locks you up but I would have expected my DH to talk some sense into me leaving in the middle of the night with a drive of 1.5 hours home, having to explain to the kids where mum is in the morning, having to explain to everyone else as well. It just looks odd to me, an over-reaction. Sorry but I just think that's such a strange thing to do. You could have avoided them in the morning easily until you knew how the land was lying. Thankfully they've seen the error of their ways but even if they hadn't you could have calmly explained to them and their wives the next day why you'd asked them to leave and why you weren't happy with their behaviour. If they're decent people they'd understand, the wives would be on your side and the men would have apologised, which is what happened.

Isn't this typical? Women turning on each other and missing the entire point of the conversation which is about men being rape apologists.

THIS is why they think it's ok to laugh at this stuff, because it's minimised and prioritised way below all this other horseshit about who left and why ffs.

Hackmum part of me wishes I'd done that for longer. I did do it for a while at the start - when they first started, I just rolled my eyes and started scrolling through my phone. I shouldn't have risen to the bait but it got to the point where I was worried my 6 year old son was still awake and listening. I knew if I opted out of the conversation the conversation would stop, because it was all "for my benefit" if that makes sense...

Celia, you've missed the point of my posts. I'm not trying to turn on Tatty. I'm just bewildered why she handled it this way. The point that their conversation about rape was well out of order would have been better made in my view by pulling them up on it then and there and ending the night - with or without her husband's support - rather then retreating to her room and then driving off home, especially when they'd left by then anyway. I'm obviously a much more assertive person, or at least older and more experienced, as this would not have been difficult to me, for whatever reason Tatty didn't feel she could. It could have been done in such a way that it wouldn't be a scene. No need for the knee-jerk reaction Celia that the reason it's ok to laugh at this stuff is because it's minimised. No way have I suggested that. All I'm saying in my posts is the way I would have handled it is I would have made the point the conversation was totally unacceptable and my views on the men's personalities would have been made crystal clear then and there.

Tabilope

yet I'm still a bit confused with it as she also says she didn't go straight away and he didn't come into the room she retreated to. I'm guessing he left her for a while and somehow they then spoke about it, but when is not clear

That's right, when they left our apartment I spoke with my DH who I hadn't seen since retreating until then. We had a conversation along the lines of why I was so upset, which he hadn't even realised up to this point, let alone worked out why because he missed the start, and at that point I said "actually, I've decided to go back home for the night because its really not doing it for me"

Actually Tatty has just posted she left AFTER the two men left which confuses me even more. What a strange thing to do in my view. I thought you left Tatty as they were still there. Strange to leave after the event in the middle of the night

Maybe, but it wasn't a decision I took lightly, to leave. What I didn't want it to seem like was a flounce, a big attention seeking flounce where you grab the car keys and start the engine and then they all drunkenly spill out the apartment and go "oh don't be stupid love" and all that shite. What it was instead was a quiet, dignified exit that didn't disturb anyone and for whom there was no audience. The sole purpose of it was to retreat to a place I would rather be - the comfort and serenity of my own home after a difficult social hiccup.

If you'd felt strongly about it you could have left in the morning or all gone out for the morning as a family to have a bit of space I suppose that was another option, I just chose to go then and there as I thought the whole thing might get swept under the rug at breakfast time and if I were to bring it up with them I'd get the whole "oh not this again" thing which hungover people with a guilty conscience might actually do.

You might be 36 and of course no one is for a minute suggesting your DH locks you up but I would have expected my DH to talk some sense into me leaving in the middle of the night with a drive of 1.5 hours home, having to explain to the kids where mum is in the morning, having to explain to everyone else as well

To be fair, he did ask me not to leave but I assured him I just wanted a bit of space for quiet contemplation and the car journey, sleep in own bed, and pondering this morning has provided me just that.

It just looks odd to me, an over-reaction. Sorry but I just think that's such a strange thing to do. You could have avoided them in the morning easily until you knew how the land was lying. Thankfully they've seen the error of their ways but even if they hadn't you could have calmly explained to them and their wives the next day why you'd asked them to leave and why you weren't happy with their behaviour. If they're decent people they'd understand, the wives would be on your side and the men would have apologised, which is what happened

Part of why I retreated from the room and left quietly in the night is because I didn't want to be seen to over-react, attention seek, make it all about me, etc etc when really I was just genuinely upset and in need of a bit of space. I don't regret it, it was definitely the right decision.

The point that their conversation about rape was well out of order would have been better made in my view by pulling them up on it then and there I did, when ignoring their wind-up attempts didn't work and I was starting to worry my child might be overhearing

I suppose I could have ended the night. Said, off you go boys, you've had enough. Could have gone either way - bet I would have ended up being the "bad guy" in their minds though whereas now they are "shit, we fucked up". To be fair if I'd chucked them out and pulled them up on it in the morning it might have just raged on. At least this way I have set a very clear boundary.

Its weird dealing with drunk men when you are sober. And the sheep one doesn't get out much either so he doesn't half ramble on.

Thanks for the explanations Tatty. We'll have to agree to disagree as while you left quietly without flouncing with an audience, to leave at all to me was an over-reaction. Despite that I understand the bit about putting some distance between you all, but if you had no gripe with your DH and you're all in different apartments anyway I don't really see why you had to do something so drastic - my main concern would be the kids waking up and my not being there the next morning. The move back home has obviously done you good though but to go back to me would be strange because it seems, to me at least, leaving in the first place was such a big, dramatic thing to do. I used to holiday with a number of couples and one woman did this (over something I can't remember but nothing like what was being said to you) and among the rest of us there was a bit of eye-rolling going on.

I find it hard to understand what you did because I'm obviously such a different personality and if something is wrong I'm quite happy to point it out - especially if I thought my 6 year old son was possibly awake and could hear the conversation, they would have been out the door that minute. It wouldn't have bothered me if they'd thought I was being too sensitive about the conversation as I would know 100% I wasn't being. Hope you can all put it behind you and enjoy the rest of your weekend.

Who cares if they'd thought you were the bad guy by chucking them out? When they sobered up and when their wives knew the contents of the conversation (and the fact you thought your DS might have overheard) you wouldn't have been the bad guy, which could have been achieved without you going home in my view. I don't see how it could have "raged on" after that - you would simply have shown clearly where your line was and anyone crossing it will be dealt with by you.

Thanks Tabilope. Maybe leaving was an over-reaction. But it felt right.
If there is eye rolling going on, so be it...sometimes you have to do what you feel is right.

I'll be heading back shortly so I might even update!

I've really valued all the posts, it has really made me see the situation from a variety of perspectives.

Well if it felt right then fair enough. I can understand that but you're away as a family and I think personally I wouldn't have wanted to do anything that disrupted that for my kids. I'm sure they've been fine though; hopefully your DH came up with a believable explanation but shame he had to come up with one at all.

I'd be expecting a strange atmosphere when you go back - pleasant and light on the surface but an underlying distance, unless they are fundamentally decent blokes and apologise profusely and sincerely. They don't sound it to me though, even if they go through the motions of apologising. No.1 man is an arse to even have these views, let alone express them, even if he doesn't truly believe that, to joke about it tells me a lot about his personality. No.2 man I don't have a better opinion about as I truly despise sheep like this. He really reminds me of a schoolboy that joins in as he's weak as shit inside so can easily fall into the trap of going along with things, essentially ganging up on you. I come down hard on that behaviour and would have had him squirming with a few barbs of my own. As one of their wives I'd be totally embarrassed by them and people can react oddly in those situations - it could be mixed up with blaming you for highlighting their husbands' inadequacies if they're not strong women and don't feel they can come down firmly on your side. Personally I'm not sure my friendships with these couples could survive this weekend even though I might not want to lose the wives' friendship.

Tatty - I think you are smashing .

I actually don't fundamentally believe that even asshole one holds these opinions - he was on the wind up. And whilst I saw it for what it was an ignored it at first, I fell into the trap. I think he was in super gobby wind up mode, which makes him an arse for sure. I don't think he truly thinks rape is acceptable but thinks its oh so hilarious to think of the most controversial topic then gang up on someone only to hold his hands up and say "hey I was joking don't be so uptight". Its probably one of those Games People Play in that Eric Berne book.

Right, I really have to go now!!! Been faffing around preening but I'm outa here. Mwah! Gotta love mumsnet for getting your head clear on a situation

Talliope, that wasn't sarcasm.

It seems to me that - What's that thing people do where they goad you and goad you until finally they get a reaction...? - could easily be applied to your posts in this thread.

You seem bemused that someone who is not you behaved in a way that you would not. Get used to the idea that everyone else is not you and will have different reactions and make different decisions based on their own circumstances, beliefs and personality.

Tatty has dealt with this in the way that was right for her and provided us with a thread which has been for the most part stimulating and illuminating.

Best of luck Tatty.

I think the OP handled it absolutely brilliantly and I too am that the focus has become the way she handled the situation just because it wasn't what one poster felt she should have done.

Well said northlight, I thought it was just me?!

Tatty - you have the patience of a saint and I don't mean re the two blokes.