What's that thing people do where they goad you and goad you until finally they get a reaction...?

[TattyDevine]

Long story short I have just opted out of a social situation where a couple of male friends were goading me, I was trying to ignore their silliness (they were a bit drunk) and eventually I just said, look, would you think it would be acceptable to be saying that about one of your family members to which you then get "don't twist my words" "we are only trying to wind you up" etc etc.

(For a bit of background they were making jokes about there being no such thing as rape in uni and how they are all gagging for it and how you should be able to buy rohypnol in the student union café. This conversation came about because I mentioned how pleased I was with the security of my 19 year old niece's uni accommodation)

I know there are various things called stonewalling and stuff but does this type of scenario as described above, picking and picking and picking until finally they get a rise then blaming it on you for being oversensitive, does that have a word? Or are they just c*nts, lol.

I could do with some help actually in how to manage these two "friends" and I know there is relationships but I'm all about the traffic right not. Go on Mumsnet sisterhood, give me some strength, my darling husband wants me to go back to this holiday site we are all staying and face these two sexist drunken oiks

Sorry you had this nasty experience.
But it is a really interesting thread ...

1. It's baiting, not really any more technical word for it. Goading, provocation, etc. will do also, gaslighting is indeed something else (in particular, it's not a group dynamic, it's something one individual does to another individual).

1. A question I had, which you answered further along, was 'can these people interact socially in any other way?' - and, interestingly, you said that 'bantery' behaviour is in fact how they operate socially generally (and which you have been fine, indeed happy with, before). And presumably you have always found that whatever the line is kept to (ie, by them, not you) is fine with you, so you've never had to draw a line for them before.

1. So the issue for you & them here - which will drive what & how you speak to them - is why this particular evening went differently. And of course we know why, which is the very topic that they decided to 'riff' on - but it means that, for now, you have to be the line-drawer where you haven't had to before.

1. The reason this evening went so badly is because somebody chose to cross a line - and it was the nastier bloke. Thus what you are actually looking at is a group dynamic between these two men for which, you were, unfortunately, the victim/audience - the arena to play it out in.

1. Thus - my advice. You speak to the nicer man. You say, look, you know and I know I really enjoy your company, we have a great time. I don't want to upset your friendship with X but he's got a nasty side, and I want you to know that I am not ever again going to get put in that place like last night again. You'd never have spoken like that if he wasn't there - you know where the lines should be even if he does. I am trusting you to support me here.

PS - don't make it about rape as such. Make it about two guys egging each other on in a way that is indefensible - get at the cause not the symptom.

There's a lovely little farm shop down the road that does the most amazing poached eggs on thick sliced bloomer bread...

Bink that was a very thoughtful and informative post. Thank you so much for taking the time to post it, its a very very useful insight.

Oh, the reason, I should have said, not to make it about rape as such - is because presumably the nastier bloke has other lines he could cross in other future banter-escalation situations - race, disability, you can probably come up with a list in your own head. It's what people like that do.

It's there, just waiting for you. I think the last post about picking the pair apart and enlisting the support of one sounds good. If you can be bothered, that is.

Just one last bit - the other word you could use for it is 'bullying'

As basically that's what it was - people ganging up on one person to put them in a place where they feel vulnerable/ helpless/ disempowered, in order for the gangers-up to get a thrill of power (again, didn't have to be anything about the actual topic, just that hot sadistic thrill of being able to put somebody at a loss). Bastard. I am having a very nice coffee for your sake now.

Thank you Bink. There was an element of that about it.

I don't see the point of trying to explain anything to them for the sake of the friendship group. I had 'friends' like this. I don't see them any more.

Even though I liked the ringleader's wife, after too many incidents where he and his little cronies would have a laugh at someone's expense, I realised she condoned his behaviour.

I agree with bink it's almost irrelevant that the subject was rape. Friends do not wind friends up. And where I come from, husbands believe their wives automatically.

What it comes down to is that the arsehole thinks rape is funny, that men have a right to any woman they choose. He tried to attack and dominate you verbally in the same way that rApists dominate women physically.

I think that I'd simply make sure that he isn't invited to my house in future, that I don't go on holiday with him again, and that we don't speak to each other again.

Well done for standing up to him - I wonder whether its worth giving his wife and teenage daughter a bit of info about Women's Aid, etc?

Thanks all. I'm going to head back up there shortly (its about an hour and a half away) mainly because I haven't seen my husband all week and my children obviously want me there.

I have had loads of texts from various members of the group - the arsehole is very contrite, his butthead cronie sidekick is extremely sheepish according to my friend and has texted me as well, the women are very supportive and the wife of the arsehole one (who has her own issues with him trust me) assures me he is kicking himself.

So I'll head back up there. Husband is very upset about the whole thing and feels he should have handled it differently (and he could have to be fair but I am my own person).

I'll update on my return for you if you want - I always want to find out how threads like this turn out so I'll assume there is someone out there who wants an update!!! x

Sorry I've skimmed the thread so might get some of this wrong. So you drove home in the middle of the night after hosting these men along with your DH in some rented place? Had you not had a drink? Were you safe to drive? How did your DH not see you had gone, hear the car go? Was he up all night drinking with them? Why didn't you tell them to get out and go back to where they were staying? Why did you have to leave the room and go upstairs? Why didn't you pull the second bloke up and call him a stupid little sheep? I really don't understand why you didn't pull them up about this in a stronger way, send them packing, tell your husband what was going on as he missed the start and end of it (for whatever reason) and then you left! Why did you have to leave? You have strong views about what they were saying. Why did you feel you could not express them? Even if that meant a falling out with the arsehole one and the sheep one? Who wants to be friends with these people anyway? They would have gone home, you could have stayed (I really feel you've run away from something here) and no doubt their wives would have had a word with them the next day and sent them to apologise. And if they hadn't to me that would be no great loss. There's a line that they crossed with those views and to be honest I couldn't give a shit about being friends with thickos like that. Bizarre.

Gaslighting. Its called gaslighting and yes, they are nasty little cunts! Joking about that stuff is not a joke on face value, its testing the water with their darkest opinions. I wouldn't even reason with 'imagine if it was your sister/daughter/etc'. I'd wade straight in with 'your sister wearing that skirt the other night, how much ketamine to get her in the sack for a sneaky hassle free fuck?'

Wankers.

Tabilope, one can only assume you've never been in the presence of baying, rape-joking men. Its bloody intimidating!! But yes, I'd cut them off dead in future and make it crystal clear to my husband why!

soapysam, yes I have actually - I've worked in all male environments before. I just don't put up with crap like that. There were only two of them on her turf and her husband was there and the second one was just a sheep anyway so could have been cut down with a few sharp words (he probably was a sheep at school and hasn't grown up). They were drunk. Presumably she was not as she drove later so I'm surprised at what she did. Why leave? To me I would have told them to shut up as they were being disgusting or they need to leave. Even if it created a scene. Tattydevine presumably isn't that assertive but in situations like that you really have to be. Maybe it's because I'm older but there's no way I would have run away from that.

And why wasn't her DH sticking up for her?

Tabliope do you feel better for getting that off your chest? The answers are all there in the thread.

soapy it is not gaslighting. But you are right, asshole 1 is a wanker, I think asshole 2 is more a bit of a sheep than an arsehole - probably.

Tatty yes - update please! and please make sure that the women hear, from you, exactly what their husbands were saying otherwise, contrite or not, I still think this could be turned around to you being 'too sensitive and not having a sense of humour'

Tabliope - why not read the thread, or at the very least Tatty's posts??

Chipping, I have read Tatty's thread and pretty much skimmed over the rest of it. What have I got wrong in my summation?

Tabliope You said yourself Sorry I've skimmed the thread so might get some of this wrong so I thought you might have missed some points. Which you have. But to be honest I can't be bothered cutting and pasting all the parts of the thread (sorry)

How did your DH not see you had gone, hear the car go? Was he up all night drinking with them?

It was my choice to just lay low and let them get on with it and then inform my husband of exactly what took place, then leave (against his wishes but I said to him "you will respect me for it in the morning" - and he does) 9.31am

I don't know why she didn't just tell them to fuck off either - but it's generally easier to say when reading the thread than it is to do that at the time isn't it.

Anyway, these bloody walls wont paint themselves - so back to it!!

Tabliope

Was I safe to drive? Yes. I was sober.

How did your DH not see you had gone, hear the car go?
He did, he supported my decision to go to a place where I felt I could have quiet contemplation about what had upset me and asked me to text him when I arrived home safely. He didn't want me to go, but he also respects my ability to make my own decisions.

Was he up all night drinking with them?
No, they left about midnight or half 12 I think.

Why didn't you tell them to get out and go back to where they were staying? I could have done, but I chose instead to opt out of the conversation. Just the decision I made at the time and I'm glad I did. If I'd chucked them out I have a feeling I'd be far more likely to have been painted as the one who made a scene or overreacted when in fact they were in the wrong, so I chose the dignified silence and withdrawal. I was the sober one here after all.

Why did you have to leave the room and go upstairs? I didn't have to, I chose to (see above) and it wasn't upstairs but that's not terribly relevant.

Why didn't you pull the second bloke up and call him a stupid little sheep? I really don't understand why you didn't pull them up about this in a stronger way, send them packing, tell your husband what was going on as he missed the start and end of it (for whatever reason)

Same as above really, I'd rather have the conversation where I pull them up on it or call them whatever names I want to call them when they are sober. Its far more adult to adult then and more likely to sink in if they do see it as an opportunity to adjust their attitude.

And then you left! Why did you have to leave?

I didn't have to leave, I chose to leave.

You have strong views about what they were saying. Why did you feel you could not express them? Even if that meant a falling out with the arsehole one and the sheep one?

As above, best done in a situation where all parties are sober and after a good night's sleep. I had already expressed them to be fair, which is why the conversation as detailed in the OP took place - but I wasn't going to go round and round in circles with them for their entertainment.

Who wants to be friends with these people anyway?

Well, I'm not sure I do to be honest!

They would have gone home, you could have stayed (I really feel you've run away from something here)

I could have stayed, but I fancied some time away from the situation for quiet contemplation because they had upset me. If that's running away, well, that is what I was running away from, the environment where this scene unfolded.

and and no doubt their wives would have had a word with them the next day and sent them to apologise

Indeed they did, and I they did indeed drop by to apologise and in my absence have texted me instead, which is something I guess! I don't think their wives even "sent" them, I think they genuinely wanted to come and apologise, by the sound of it, though you never know.

8And if they hadn't to me that would be no great loss. There's a line that they crossed with those views and to be honest *

I totally agree.

I couldn't give a shit about being friends with thickos like that

You have a point but its not just me - there are the wives who are lovely, the children who have grown up together, its a little more complicated and yes I was disappointed to see this side of them.

Bizarre

Yes it is starting to feel that way but I am so enjoying the serenity right now!!!

I would say it is called 'incitement'. In certain situations it would be a crime. It is the fact that there are men like this around that means Uni's need security in the first place. Tossers. YANBU.

I actually think leaving the holiday home was the best thing you could have done, for the longer term. Not running away at all. It cannot be ignored, and it's far too big to sweep under the carpet, as it could have been under the guise of "meh I was drunk" (never an excuse IMO). It focuses the attention on the arsehole, in a "what the hell did YOU do" sort of way and I would imagine he's squirming quite a bit now. He can't brush it off, he's got to offer up explanations and they are going to be wholly inadequate. And it's memorable and therefore can be flung in his face for all eternity by his wife whenever she wants to point up his arseholey ways to him (which sounds as if it may happen all too frequently ).

And I fully understand not wanting his behaviour to stop you being friends with his wife and the other couple. Why should his behaviour be allowed to dictate yours?

So I missed that bit about her telling her husband she was leaving - minor point in the whole weird scenario. How bizarre he let her go. Presumably she hadn't drunk anything all evening or called a taxi if she had. So her DH then went back to socialising with the two arseholes after they'd upset his wife so much she felt she had to leave? Did he tell them? Bizarre as I said before. Apart from that I don't think I've got the wrong end of the stick with anything else Chipping. No need to cut and paste anything, no one's asking you to do that.

Sorry OP. I was harsh about your DH. I think he probably didn't know how to deal with the bullying or what to do for the best. That's understandable.