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Original poster

To refer to a black man as a black man

574 replies

ShakeRattleNRoll · 03/10/2013 23:55

The other day i was talking about this black man who lives down the road to a neighbour and she said it was politically incorrect of me to say 'you know that black man who lives there' after I had said it.I thought well i never.What's wrong with calling him a black man when he is a black man? How should have I described him? TYIA

OP posts:
EldritchCleavage · 07/10/2013 13:54

It's not bewildering at all. Perhaps you just need to think about it a bit more.

curlew · 07/10/2013 13:55

"One of my closest friends, who is from Dehli, refers to himself as Brown Boy. We always laugh, but then I'm thinking - shit does that make me racist because I'm laughing at my friend refer to himself as Brown Boy. If a white person called him Brown Boy, no doubt everyone would have a fit. I have another friend, who refers to herself as LezzerLiz because she is gay. Again, it always makes us laugh, but presumably if anyone else called her that, it would be a all wrong."

The key point is that these people in your wonderful rainbow nation of friends are using those words to describe themselves. People often do this pre-emptively to defuse any potential tension, and to reassure white/straight people that they are not threatening. Maybe you could find a way or reassuring your friends that they don't have to be so self deprecating in your presence?

curlew · 07/10/2013 13:56

It's not bewildering, by the way. You're just under thinking.

PostBellumBugsy · 07/10/2013 13:59

Wow, Curlew - how do you suggest I go about that. "Hey Mike, you know we've been friends for 25 years now, puked our way through uni together, went to each other's weddings, are god parents to each other's children & know pretty much all there is to know about each other - well, please don't be so self-deprecating in my presence any more by referring to yourself as Brown Boy?" Really?

Eldrich - help me to think about it. I am not having a dig - I am trying to understand.

KellyElly · 07/10/2013 14:14

Wow, Curlew - how do you suggest I go about that. "Hey Mike, you know we've been friends for 25 years now, puked our way through uni together, went to each other's weddings, are god parents to each other's children & know pretty much all there is to know about each other - well, please don't be so self-deprecating in my presence any more by referring to yourself as Brown Boy?" Really? Grin

curlew · 07/10/2013 14:31

If you've been best friends with somebody from an ethnic minority for 25 years it's even odder that you're "bewildered"..........

Oceansurf · 07/10/2013 14:36

I haven't got time to read all the thread..

However. If that's his most identifiable feature, I don't see a problem with it? You'd say, the ginger kid, or the lady with glasses, or the man in a wheelchair? Or the lady with long blonde hair, or the short man with a bald head?

Maybe if he were black AND short and bald, you could pick the latter!

But really. Is it really racist to say what you see? You probably wouldn't describe him as the black man, if you lived in an area where black men were more common than white men. But if he's the only black man around??

PostBellumBugsy · 07/10/2013 14:51

Thanks Curlew - I'm surprised too - but I still am! I've been friends with people from "ethnic minorities" for longer than that too!

Never used to be - never had any thoughts at all but in recent years I have become bewildered. Maybe it is my age - but that is probably ageist!

Maybe it is part of the whole litigious thing. I had some really, really bad news recently and my boss came over to give me a hug & then stepped back & said "You know I'd give you a hug, but I'd better not because it might be inappropriate touching." I know it is not exactly the same but that's what everything feels like. It is as though we are all treading on egg shells nervous that genuine comments, actions that are in no way badly intended or designed to cause offence or be in anyway inappropriate could be perceived as such.

It felt like that when DS was accused of racism, like they were deliberately trying to put a racist slant on what was simply an observation of fact. How can it possibly be racist to observe that you'll get a better tan if you have one black parent & one white parent as opposed to two white parents.

curlew · 07/10/2013 15:00

Wow, you really do live in Daily Mail Land, don't you? Over here in the PC paradise of Guardianistas, we know the difference between a hug and an inappropriate touch, between racism and description.

You still haven't said what the governors said about your son being accused of racism.

MummyofIsla · 07/10/2013 15:05

My partner is indian and as such my dd mixed race. Me and oh have talked about it after my gran meeting dd for first time and describing her (affectionately) as coffee with milk and decided what the hell does it matter what people call us. All that matters is the manner in which it is used. My mum calls dd and oh coloured simply as a generation thing but its not mean offensively so its not taken yo be.

Its not about names its about peoples' attitudes.

PostBellumBugsy · 07/10/2013 15:14

Curlew, why are you have a go at me? I don't read the Daily Mail.

Perhaps if you had an autistic child to describe what is racism / sexism / and every other ism to them and what may or may not be inappropriate - however well or factually intentioned, then you might be able to empathise with my queries slightly more!

I didn't have to go to the board of governors, as I was able to argue my DS's case sufficiently well with the Headteacher

Dahlen · 07/10/2013 15:30

From what I've seen if someone unwittingly says something crass or mildly offensive (e.g. uses the wrong terminology), realises or has it pointed out, and then apologises, most people on both sides move on with no hard feelings and no repercussions.

I can't speak for everyone, but personally I have not come across anyone who has lost their job or suffered some other dreadful consequence simply for being a bit thoughtless with their language. They have been bollocked or sent on diversity courses - and quite rightly so since as times change ignorance is less valid an excuse - but nothing that would mar their career or life.

Consequences usually tend to occur as a result of persistent behaviour or behaviour that is so bad it is clearly intentional rather than accidental. All too often it turn out that the 'PC-gorn-mad straight-talker' who is complaining that he or she has been singled out is someone who has eventually been taken to task for causing offence to numerous people over a long period of time.

PostBellum - your case beautifully illustrates that. It's an example of a misunderstanding that was cleared up when it became obvious that no offence was intended.

sparechange · 07/10/2013 15:45

ExH is black and would find it hilarious the lengths that people would go to to describe him without saying 'black'
I lost count of how many times he would be the 'man in a shirt, sat at the table with the woman with dark hair who has her coat on the back of the chair and the bags on the floor' or something
He would himself make a point of saying it but did once get into an argument with a barman who asked where he was sitting when ordering food, and he replied 'on the table next to the black couple'.

The barman told him he could say that because it was racist

Personally, I don't see it as any more racist that saying 'the woman with red hair' or 'the guy with dreadlocks'. It is just a description of physical appearance.
If you jump to the assumption that describing someone as 'black' is an insult, I think it says more about you than it does about them

PostBellumBugsy · 07/10/2013 15:47

Dahlen, it didn't feel like a misunderstanding at the time. DS was being called racist & he was guilty until proven innocent. I'm fairly eloquent and I was also sure in my mind that DS is not racist. He is blunt and truthful to his own detriment but not racist. I fought hard to clear his name with the Headteacher and for it not to be on his record, it wasn't just a nice cosy chat about a misunderstanding.

Dahlen · 07/10/2013 15:56

PostBellum that's possibly due to the HT's style as much as anything. I don't know, but the HT had a job to do, which is not act in a way that could potentially condone any racism.

The HT was dealing with a complaint about racism and had to take it seriously. A typical HT may well know the names of all the children in the school but will not know each child individually and well enough to know about that child's temperament, and the values and attitudes prevalent in that child's home life. The HT could have been dealing with a situation where your DS intentionally meant to cause offence.

The only way to establish the truth was to investigate. Which means asking probing questions.

I do sympathise, as it's horrible to be accused of something you haven't done. However, as unpleasant as that was for you and your DS, if the HT had taken your assertion that you or DS weren't racist on face value then that would not have been a proper investigation. Very few racists/bullies admit to what they've done straight away and usually try to either deny or bluster their way out of it.

PostBellumBugsy · 07/10/2013 16:07

I know Dahlen and I consoled myself with that fact at the time. I was so thankful that there had been another child involved in the conversation, so it wasn't just DS's word and the other girl's. However, even with the other girl's word, the HT was still trying to say that what DS said was racist. It made me question my whole outlook. That & trying to explain to someone who has no concept of "unwritten rules" of what is ok & what isn't. It has made me much more aware of what a potential minefield the whole "ist" thing can be.

Dahlen · 07/10/2013 16:17

Did the HT talk about your DS's autism? It would have been secondary to the issue of racism since one does not determine the other, but the HT should have had a structured plan in mind about how to work with your DS on the subject of descriptive language and racial characteristics. Focusing on that afterwards could have resulted in a meeting that was resolved with a much more positive spin for all concerned.

PostBellumBugsy · 07/10/2013 16:20

DS is at a different school now, specially for children with autism and learning difficulties. He goes to special classes on how to understand human beings! Wink

fifi669 · 07/10/2013 17:03

This thread is hilarious! He's black, she said he's black, how is that racist???

DP and I live in Cornwall. I think there's about 5 non white people in the whole county (I exaggerate), his dad as DP would say is proper black being from Sri Lanka. He is brown. To not differentiate him from the 99.9999% of the population by saying he's brown would be ridiculous. He has been called a black bastard, which is neither acceptable or factually correct. That pisses him off. Which one is your DP? He's the brown one. Straight to the point. Likewise with me he'd say the short one.

Between ourselves we say I have twilight vampire skin or I'm albino, I call him cocoa because he's the colour of chocolate. (Did confuse DS that his dad was made of chocolate, several biting incidents). We are TTC currently and have called it operation coco pops! We are obviously racist towards are unborn children....

curlew · 07/10/2013 17:36

"This thread is hilarious! He's black, she said he's black, how is that racist???"

Er, have you read the thread?

fifi669 · 07/10/2013 17:58

Yep. All of it. People are getting their knickers in a twist about a perfectly innocent remark. It's just a descriptive word. As said before same as talk, fat, cross eyed.

Don't give me the balls about centuries of persecution. That may have happened to their great grandparents or something but not to them. That's like women taking offence they didn't have the vote years ago. It's pointless.

I have to agree with what someone else said, it's not the black, brown etc people that are finding a problem with this but white ultra pc do gooders. Tying yourself in knots not to say the obvious. Is being black offensive? No. So why would using it as a descriptive term be? Madness!

MrsDeVere · 07/10/2013 18:46

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

fifi669 · 07/10/2013 18:54

Ha ha ha, it's still around yes with some ignorant people. Generally those with a low IQ I've found, though other peoples experience may be different. (Old folk aside).

The point being that while racism, sexism and other forms of discrimination still exist, taking it upon yourself to say it's not acceptable to say someone is black because donkeys ago they were made to be slaves? Is it not the same as to not be able to say someone is a woman as we were treated as second class citizens and a mans commodity?

curlew · 07/10/2013 19:24

Er, fifi-had you noticed that the point of this thread was "the PC brigade" (of which I count myself a proud member) saying it was absolutely fine to use black as a descriptor
If that was the most sensible one to use?

curlew · 07/10/2013 19:25

Oh and if you think that racism is restricted to the unintelligent you have a few shocks coming......