Why do you think behaviour in schools is so much worse than even 10 yrs ago.

[soul2000]

This is not a joke thread. I am generally interested as to how much the standard of behaviour has deteriated in the last 25 years since i left school.

What amazes me, is that teachers are not shocked when watching programes like educating yorkshire, that just shows how bad the behaviour of some pupils is.

Another shocking thing is that pupils who in my time would have been labeled a menace "ME INCLUDED" are now seen as upstanding pupils.

How has the standard fallen so far and what can be done to re address the balance.

This thread is in support of teachers.

Unfortunately I don't think there's a point. There are a few that are determined to make it a bunfight, and frankly I'm not interested. They're not willing to educate themselves and are more interested in creating chaos and upsetting people. IMO the best thing to do at this point is to either continue discussing relevant issues and ignore them completely, or simply ignore the entire thread.

I get tired of trying to "educate" people (as MN would like done) about SNs when they're not really willing to listen anyway.

The comments from Trigglesx were a bit strong. "Correction"

Thanks. Played.

People are entitled to their views and ideas.

It should not come down to name calling or other nasty comments about poor "Grammar", wrong spelling or incorrect Terminology.

Back to the thread !

The point i was trying to make, was that every pupil should have boundaries within the classroom. They should know those boundaries are not to be crossed in any circumstance whatever the reasons.

My DD has SN- I would happily have her out of mainstream and have found a school I think would benefit her but no chance of getting funding

Schools get a pupil premium for every child with SN and this is set to rise considerably for pupils who are in/or have been in the care system
My DD has FASD and attachment disorder
She looks 'normal' and can present very well. I know the other parents believe she is badly behaved and do not like their little darlings playing with her

She goes to no parties or playdates
It is heartbreaking. After a rotten start it continues
I dont tell other parents why, I dont think I should have to share her background with all and sundry
Incidentally, for those who think the 'do it right' in the private sector, I sent her to a holiday club at a private school. It was terrible. Despite giving them loads of info prior to her attending and them saying they could cope, they didnt have a clue

It is very easy to 'blame' behaviour on poor parenting but no-one really knows. I am sure I am judged locally on my parenting skills

those boundaries are not to be crossed in any circumstance whatever the reasons.

These boundaries should then be 'equal opportunities' friendly, taking into account any SNs that may be present within the class.

At a crude level, 'Stand to attention for the teacher' is useless for a paraplegic.

This discussion has encompassed:

Chaotic / dysfunctional families

Lack of respect for authority

Gove

General culture of moaning

Government interference

Middle-class precious parenting

Technology

Gove

Addiction

Unsupported or undiagnosed SN.

I found those without reading the entire thread so I am sure there are more.

Anais Gove mentioned more than once? perish the thought!

Ignore the first link to Gove. The second one works.

AND I think this problem goes much deeper than Gove...

I'm sure it does... I think there are a number of things that contribute. I don't honestly think it's just one thing. Much as I'd love to blame it ALL on Gove, I can't. There are other factors.

1. There are genuine children with special needs.

1. There are disruptive pupils with no special needs, who exhibit extreme behaviour.

1. There are MORE children who disrupt the class with constant annoying low level behaviour, just because they can get away with it.

There is a blurring of boundaries within all these categories, hence the bunfight.

There have always been pupils from category 1 and 2. I just think that the main reason standards have declined, is the rise of pupils in category 3, and it is for the many reasons we were discussing above.

Primarily, I think it is the decline in respct from the parents, which filters down to the kids, combined with a general lack of respect for authority, full stop. Kids, more frequently don't even respect their parents, so there is no hope for their teachers.

My kids are exemplery pupils and are generally well behaved at home, but they talk to us and get away with far more, than we would have ever dared to, with our parents. That is the culture today. American kids tv has a lot to answer for.

Also parents now, fit their lives around their children, rather than children fitting in with them. We are guilty (myself included) of breeding entitled "little emperors" who think they are in charge. And often they are.

I think it does go deeper.

**

oooooh I want one!!!

Yes, I think the respect thing is definitely an aspect of it. I remember my parents basically saying "If you get in trouble, I expect you to tell me the truth of what happened. If you didn't do anything wrong, I'll back you on it, but if you're in the wrong or you lie to me about it, God help you, because you will be in SO much trouble!!"

"SN Brigade" is a really offensive construct.

But I'd be happy to be in a brigade with these lovely women.

Shew Sorry but No 3 is down to teachers. Parents cannot parent remotely. You just have to learn how to deal with it.

A school is a microcosm of society, you have to love it, them, to teach. If you dismiss them all as bad or hopeless, what have you got left?

These are people, albeit badly behaved, by your standards. What can I say? Read the Bible. The apostles preached to total heathens, heads on sticks jobbies, human sacrifices. It has been done...

My parents were more inclined to believe whatever the school said but even grammar school was a more relaxed regime compared to home so I wasn't ever in trouble there.

American kids' television is an excellent point! I can hardly bear to watch it but DD knows we would never tolerate such brattish behaviour.

Yes teachers do have to learn to deal with it, but there is so much more of it, than there was years ago and the teachers job is so much harder because of it.

It is easier to deal with real disruptive behaviour than it is with insidious low level behaviour that is displayed by several "characters". Others join in if there are a few such pupils. These pupils would otherwise be well behaved without the "encouragement" of the low level kids. They do not misbehave enough to get themselves in real trouble. It just makes the teacher concentrate more on dealing with this, rather than teaching.

I am very late to this thread and I have not read it (only the op) So don't shout at me!

Imo it is simply lack of discipline, The poor teachers do not have a leg to stand on when it comes to disciplining children now. At one point in time children would treat their teachers (and parents) with respect and would also be afraid of consequences. That does not happen at all anymore.

I was just saying to a friend the other day that there is no way in hell I would ever be a teacher, I have so much respect for those people who go on to do so but I also feel they are in such a vulnerable job that it could jump up and bite them in the ass at any time.

Bring back the clean nails, polished shoes and clean behind the ears!

I have had chalk board wipers thrown at me, I have been pinned against the wall etc by teachers, I have never suffered from it but I have always remembered it which has helped me in later life.

Thepros you really need to read the thread....and others. Where've you been?

Lot to catch up on....

brambleandapple I will try and make time tonight to catch up. Thank you :)

I was afraid of the consequences at school if I got in trouble, but believe me, I was more afraid of the consequences at home. And it was a very small town, parents were rung over any number of infractions.

starlight - I would have liked to respond sooner, but today has been horrendously busy.

I wonder if you are arguing with someone other than me, in your reply of at 08.42?
" so your argument that those who misbehave do not have them is potentially an ignorant one "

Firstly, I was not making an argument, I asked a genuine question.

The question was not based on the inclusion/misuse of resources issues
I did not state that children who misbehave do not have SN/SEN.
The point I made was that every thread with any mention of children's behaviour always always ends up arguing about inclusion issues.
I did not say that there are no issues. I did infer that not ALL bad behaviour is related to those issues and I feel an element of despair that, if threads on MN are anything to judge by, disruptive behaviour seems only to be laid at the door of children with SN/SEN.

Of course children with special needs can and do have behavioural issues (and are entitled to full support & understanding) but that is not the sole reason for bad behaviour. I am related to three youngsters whose behaviour is appalling! entitled, abusive and unpleasant. They have absolutely no disability of any kind. What they have is a parent who has never set boundaries, who allowed them to do as they pleased from the time they could walk ....and who now responds to a call from the school to say her child is being punished for calling his teacher a fucking bitch, by asking "well, is she?".
They are not the only children of their type.

I've found two more.

Chusband said,

"Family life has changed. More children spend time in childcare from a younger age so they have to compete for attention. Childcare workers can't discipline them in the way a parent would for fear of complaints etc. Parents feel guilty about not spending enough time with their kids so they let them get away with more"

People discussing Socrates: (The t'was ever thus argument)

“Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.”

Anais Now you're talking.....the first was not an issue for us, as in no child care, although ds went to pre school.I do feel my child's strengths and weaknesses, possibly as a result, but possibly child care would never have worked, were different to those who had been in child care for a long time. Was also made to feel this was so.

Socrates...see problems are not new!

Re: No. 3 on that list - I have no problem dealing with badly-behaved NT children who are simply spoilt. It's kind of my "strength," if you like. They're shocked to start with, that they've met their match and can't behave as they seem to get away with elsewhere. Then they settle down and we have a great year.
But it's certainly true to say that I'm meeting many more in each new class with every year that passes.