Why do you think behaviour in schools is so much worse than even 10 yrs ago.

[soul2000]

This is not a joke thread. I am generally interested as to how much the standard of behaviour has deteriated in the last 25 years since i left school.

What amazes me, is that teachers are not shocked when watching programes like educating yorkshire, that just shows how bad the behaviour of some pupils is.

Another shocking thing is that pupils who in my time would have been labeled a menace "ME INCLUDED" are now seen as upstanding pupils.

How has the standard fallen so far and what can be done to re address the balance.

This thread is in support of teachers.

It's no good loving your subject, if you can't get that love of it across, because you are firefighting all the time rather than actually teaching.

I agree though that the best teachers are those that can motivate the children for intrinsic, rather than extrinsic rewards.

If children know that their parents will believe anything they say and will beat a path to the school door to argue in their defence, then a teacher's authority and behaviour management is undermined. That gives a child power over the teacher, and a carte blanche to behave badly.

I got the ruler once, 6 whacks on the hand, for showing the (SN) boy next to me which page we were on in maths. The teacher thought I was telling him the answer. I was 7.
My primary feeling, apart from humiliation and a sense of injustice, was fear in case anyone told my mum. I thought I'd get told off all over again.
40 years on, with the benefit of hindsight, I actually think she'd have been pretty cross on my behalf. Whether she'd have gone steaming in, however, is doubtful. Probably would have shrugged it off and told me to chalk it up to experience.

Of course you have to know and care about what interests the children too.

I like languages. I never liked maths so much until I realised it is a language.

clam I'm all for resilience. However advocating bad behaviour and going so far as to collude with it - never.

Btw. I don't go complaining to the school for every little thing, only the really important things. So it would have to be something that was causing a problem.

Poor parenting

The difference I think is (compared to 60s and 70s), that schools are supposed to keep children. Those with feckless parents who argue against punishments, well at my old school their children would have just disappeared (maybe into the criminal justice system, maybe somewhere else). I as a notorious swot can think of several children who over the years just disappeared. Two at least to Borstal, at least one had a family (3 children by 18), another had severe dyslexia and just refused school, a couple of others drifted off. None of these "moved out of the area", they just drifted away from school.

But then I knew adults who worked as part-time teachers, who were working with children with SEN (probably often Autism), who were being educated by the LA at home. The children would get an LA tutor for 15 hours a week. The tutor was untrained in SEN, and the child wasn't diagnosed either. But they were probably the lucky ones, along with the children in the better special schools.

I do not use SN as an excuse for bad behaviour. However there can be SNs, such as hypermobility for example that means sitting still for extended periods of time is physically more difficult. This is why teachers must be sensitive, some behaviour standards are physically much more difficult for some children. Would you punish a child for being left handed?

Children can have disabilities such as Tourettes that means controlling what they say is very difficult. Others can be prone to violent outbursts, through anxiety, if their physical space is invaded. Sensitivity is needed. These conditions can be managed well also.

good point soul. I worked with some lovely sn students but just before I left I was working witha y8 boy who was horrible. he did have sn but I believe some of it was bad behaviour, not working, eating sweets in class, refusing to follow instructions etc and he knew he could get away with it.

Kilmur

Poor parenting

What are you referring to?

Its a shame this post descended in to a dog fight about SN pupils.

Interestingly enough, we were just now swerving away from that and getting into an actual discussion, and you've very clearly dragged it right back there. Are you LOOKING for a bunfight???

The question was not about SN or other pupils with other difficult
challenges, it was a question about behaviour and what the reasons were for a perceived lowering of behaviourial standards.

The initial question was answered by a number of posters that inclusion of children with SNs/challenging behaviour were the cause. Some were very rightly offended as comments were disablist.

If i was a pupil today, it is quite conceviable that i would be deemed to have SN or need extra help in organisation or concentration and that i would be given some leeway for silly/stupid behaviour.

Again, we were wandering away from the discussion of SNs and now you not only drag it back into the conversation, but you clearly in this sentence equate SNs with "silly/stupid behaviour." I can only assume that you are trying your best to offend and start off another attack.

Today it seems people are using SN as an excuse for behaviour i would never have dreamt of

Again, does it not seem you are simply trying to start up the argument again?

Having SN or other challenges does not excuse said pupils from being
violent/swearing or other totally unexceptable behaviour

Wow... three pokes of offence at SNs in one post. A record? A shameless reach for a bunfight?

www.mumsnet.com/campaigns/this-is-my-child

Read. Educate yourself. Or kindly piss off.

What Triggles said. And they are not SN pupils. They have SN.

I was quite enjoying the more recent discussion.

Anyway, back to the intelligent conversation....

I do think that some of the technology creates problems. When I was a teenager, there were no mobiles, no hand held games, none of that stuff to interfere in class. The only thing teachers had to confiscate were cheat sheets, notes, and gum. Well, ok, cigarettes and drugs occasionally, but honestly, very small town. Drugs were not a huge huge issue. Neither, if I recall, were weapons. The occasional pocketknife, but that's about it.

Addiction is definitely a problem that has become more widespread over time ime. I've lived and taught in my town all my life and you didn't get parents stinking of weed, drunk in the daytime or leaving wraps of speed on their seat after having come to watch the Carol Concert

Soul..come back when you know what SN/SEN actually encompasses.

I've just re-read OP's post. Since you obviously want to discuss it:

My son's SN is visible 90-95% of the time. Not just when he "chooses" to misbehave / goes into meltdown.

It is there when he obsessively draws the same characters in detail over and over again for hours. It is there when he makes inappropriate squealing noises or gestures, or fails to recognise faces - even his own older sister.

It is evident in the fact that he doesn't sleep at night, is in nappies aged six, has a severely restricted diet, OCD, phobias and intolerance of the things most people don't even notice. Lack of eye-contact.

The fact that he thinks everyone else knows what he knows and gets frustrated by it (this called Theory of Mind)

I could go on (and on) but I very much doubt that you would have been diagnosed with a life-long disability for choosing to behave badly.

Lots of children are disciplined by naughty step and reward charts at home - Jo Frost has a lot to answer for .

When they get to school, they're expecting stickers for everything (as are many of the parents - you only have to look at some of these threads) and have no idea how to behave in a social situation.

Lol at the parents expecting stickers as well. I suspect Michael Gove has a Star Chart in his bedroom and gets one whenever he announces something ludicrous.

In fact, I am going to blame general government infereference and Gove in particular for the decline in standards. Have all the teachers here seen the Mr Men book devoted to him?

Anais. I did not say i had a life long ilness.

I said i had problems at school. these problems included handwriting,
co ordination problems, speech problems.I had speech therapy for
4 years,being unable to tie laces put clothes on correctly unable to listen to instructions unable to concentrate for more than 20 minutes.

The fact i went on to be "Succesful" in business before i lost it, is beside the point.

These are facts about me, whether you think these are "MILD" or severe is up to you. What i do know is that i struggled with school.

Finally it was not my intention to start a bun fight or any kind of fight and the comment from trigglesx were a bit strong.

I've just gone through the thread (my posts highlighted) and I have personally discussed four different additional reasons for poor behaviour.

I'm going to have to hand my SN Brigade badge in

Then why drag the conversation back to SNs when it was very nicely moving along a more reasonable path?

OP - YANBU, and whilst the "SN Brigade" excuse each and every fault of behaviour or perceived problem by "SN" things will not improve.

?????????

Children who have SN are children too. Their parents want them to learn too, we are parents after all. There is no 'standard' for us though. We are outside the norm (but not necessarily that outside). All this requires is some differentiation. Not necessarily much and it is not much to ask. Our children have a lot to give. My child amazes me every day.

It astounds me how people can lack any degree of tolerance or compassion...My child has been known to cry at the 'chaos' in class. And it is usually with the 'shouty teachers' who dole out 'class detentions'. He just wants to be good.

Soz Triggles please say something else to put the conversation back onto a reasonable path. All gone askew for me...