AIBU to hate charity Christmas shoe boxes?

[unlucky83]

We get asked to one from the school and from Sunday school ...2 Dcs that is 4 of them...last year I cut it down to 2 - doing the same this year
I really really really hate doing them...but DDs are upset if we don't ...
(at school they have an assembly where the people organising it talk to the DCs about them)...
We wander round the shops/supermarket making sure we get all the essentials on the list - buying the cheapest stuff there is ...kind of think hats/gloves/underwear are probably made by the people we send them back to..
I know I'm not on my own - everyone I know who does one says they do the same ...
Even then each box costs at least £30 ...could the money not be better spent directly by the charity buying good quality stuff that is going to last?
On the lists they say extras - like PJs - how the hell do you fit a pair of PJs for a teenager in a shoe box with all the other stuff...I find I can never fit much 'extra' in...usually just sweets as treats - good job they get toothpaste and toothbrushes or they'd have rotten teeth to add to their misery..

Then you have to find a box...then wrap the bloody things...
I just find it really difficult to wrap the box and lid separately and not get an end result that looks like it has been chewed by the dog...just spent the best part of 30 mins wrapping one that looks like a 2 yr old did it...

So am I being unreasonable to hate them and dread the leaflets coming home?

Suburban 23.00

I just felt I had to respond to your post at 23.00 yesterday ...I know, I know, you said no response needed!

You raised a similar point on another thread (food banks). While I hear all the concerns about working with vulnerable people / children and I think neverputsocks made very good posts, it must be understood that the people in food banks / OCC are good caring people whoare giving of ttheir time and effort to help others AND as part of their care, they want to share anything they yhink will help and that includes their faith. You may not agree that faith is helpful at all, and that's fine. That's your view.

However millions of people the world over find that faith of whatever sort is very meaningful and helpful to them. I guess its like advertising and we adverts and booklets every where in life. Maybe like talking about homeopathy or hypnosis if that is something that has worked for you and you are "evangelical" about it.

I think you underestimate the power people still have to say "no" even when they are in vulnerable positions, either overtly or more likely covertly by putting the prayer offer / booklet in the nearest bin.

You clearly don't find faith helpful. That's ok, but it co cernc me that you are seeking censorship about when and where people can talk about things. Free speech should be just that and it will be a sad day if ever this country limits when and where we can talk about politics, religion etc.

X

BlingBlang if you check our Statement of Faith, you will read: We believe the Bible to be the inspired, the only infallible, authoritative Word of God. (II Timothy 3:15-17). This isn't only a Statement of Faith for Samaritan's Purse, it is also my personal belief.

I recognise that my beliefs will not be shared by everyone on this thread (anyone?) but I have discovered for myself the wisdom to be found in God's word. So what anyone thinks on issues like homosexuality, abortion and evolution is really unimportant; it's only what God says that will stand the test of time. I have found Him to be trustworthy and true.

beakysmum, what I meant was I didn't need a reply from Brian. As he says in his post below yours, he says he is guided by a fundamentalist view of the bible and the word of God. So that informs his work, whether of not it is appropriate for the people OCC wants to help.

The food bank thread is over, but, like you, I had to reply to your use of the word "censorship" in your final paragraph, which I found offensive. As I said over and over again on the food bank thread, it was not the praying that was the problem. The manager of the food bank told me the volunteers always pray for the food bank users at the end of the day anyway.

What I found inappropriate was the offer to pray for individual people because the volunteers believed that prayer would be helpful. As I and many other posters said, it is not about what the volunteers find helpful, it's about what food bank users need - food for their families. Some may welcome a prayer, some may not but feel they can't say no, some may get annoyed about it and say so. But to be willing to take the risk of offending even one vulnerable person just because you personally find prayers useful is something that I, and many other posters, found inappropriate.

Hope it's clear now.

Bling, I see Teflon Brian managed not to answer your question on the Samaritan's Purse views on abortion and homosexuality.

So I thought this, from Franklin Graham, head of Samaritan's Purse, might provide some answers:

www.christianpost.com/news/franklin-graham-there-is-no-compromise-on-abortion-gay-marriage-75146/

Brian, I think it's quite important to know what an organisation stands for and believes in when you are supporting them with shoeboxes which will hopefully then enable them to spread these views to children. Of course what Samaritans Purse believes in and teaches is important if I am being asked to support them. How does Samaritans Purse view the role of women in their church? Do women have equal standing to their male counterparts in the running of your church and the leading roles?

I have a faith. It is a strong faith and it is helpful to me. Although I come from a Catholic background and was raised a Catholic I left the church for a very long time after hellish teenage years. Then my beloved Grandfather died. I went to his funeral in the church that he had built and I came back to my faith. But my faith is personal to me. I don't believe in ramming it down people's throats. I will pray for people but I won't offer to do so unless I feel they will be happy for me to do so.

It is MY faith, my choice, my life......

I cannot imagine how I would feel if someone tried to push their faith on me. Actually I can imagine because it happened. During my hellish time I ended up living with a lovely lady who happened to be an Evangelical Christian. She pushed me, gently, to attend church with her. Then one evening I was the subject of an 'Intervention' and I was pushed into 'letting Jesus into my life'. I ended up saying a lot of things I didn't mean because I was relying on her for a roof over my head........

I still break out in a cold sweat when I remember that evening and my subsequent behaviour towards others over the next few days......

So, no OCC for me this year or ever.

neverputasockinatoaster, I have to say you have a very creative imagination! Do you honestly believe that the scenario that you have described is anything like what happens with Operation Christmas Child?

For one thing, we only work through local churches and these churches are vetted by a National Leadership Team in each country; we set guidelines for what should happen and we monitor what happens through local, regional and national reports. Not that we do but should we find evidence of the kind of behaviour you have described, the NLT is made accountable and we would take appropriate action. But you seem to be overlooking the fact that these children have parents, carers and teachers who are there to protect them from anything that could harm them, physically or emotionally. We keep on hearing - from a small group of people over here - that what we are doing is abusive, hurtful and damaging; what we hear from the children, their parents/carers and their teachers is always positive, I have never seen or received a single complaint in my four and a half years here from the receiving end; the only complaints I get are from this end, usually stirred up by so much misinformation and hearsay...

Regards, Brian

BlingBkang, Samaritan's Purse is a non-denominational, evangelical Christian charity. Samaritan's s Purse is a place where we celebrate what unites us in the Christian faith; it would be highly inappropriate for Samaritan's Purse to tell churches what to do, or how to behave.

Some church denominations, my own included, welcome women in leadership, others do not. That is for them to decide and for those attending and supporting such churches.

I had to laugh at the 'Teflon Brian' comment. I wasn't avoiding your question, I answered it. You asked about Samaritan's Purse and I told you what they believe. I told you also that I believe the same. But, on the subject of sin, what you and I think and believe is not important; it's what the Bible says that is important. For me there are no shades of grey any more on these issues; it's black and white, light and dark. As a Christian I am to be a light in the darkness...

Kind regards, Brian

Brian, just two words: "Rice Christian".

neverputasockinatoaster I was so sorry to read your account of your 'hellish' years. Christians make mistakes like everyone else, they are not immune and sometimes, in their zeal, they can hurt people. This usually happens when they exercise their faith in their own strength and not tune into what God is saying or telling them to do.

Jesus gave us two commandments; To love the Lord your God with all your heart...and to love your neighbour as yourself. He also told us to 'go into all the world and make disciples'....He didn't say 'make believers'! That's His job and the work of the Spirit. It sounds as though the lady you referred to was trying to make you into a believer, that's where it went wrong. You hear these stories all the time, it really saddens me because Jesus would never want to push you into anything you weren't comfortable with... Regards, Brian

SuburbanRhonda, you got me! What do you mean by "Rice Christian"?!

Um Brian......

the shoebox they receive at a distribution event is distributed by their local church and many churches will put on some kind of event for the children that precedes the shoebox distribution that tells the Christmas story, a nativity play, puppet show, that kind of thing. Once that is done, shoeboxes are distributed, the boxes are opened and the noise level goes up considerably. Where appropriate, The Greatest Gift booklet is given to children receiving a shoebox, either with their shoebox or after they have received it.

If that isn't a celebration of a Christian Festival I don't know what is!

And Brian, my scenario is EXACTLY what OCC and a host of other organisations do! They work in areas that are deprived, either long term or short term, and they offer help and they EVANGELISE at the same time! And they don't go out there because they want to help. They go out there because they see it as an opportunity to convert vulnerable people in their time of need. I detest it when my church does it and I detest it when other churches do it.

If helping is truely all that is on the agenda then fine, distribute presents at an appropriate time for that culture rather than during a Christian festival, don't offer a book of religious stories from your culture, offer a book from their culture and DON'T mention religion at all UNLESS the people you are helping ask why - then you can say something like - 'My religion means that I believe in helping others, no matter what they believe.' Rather than saying 'Hi poor deprived people, here's a gift. I'm helping you because I believe in Jesus, he's wonderful and will save you if you believe in him. Why don't you read all about how him and maybe you should fess up to being a sinner and become a Christian just like me?'

Ooooooo I am cross. OCC makes me cross. Billy Graham et al make me sodding cross.

Have you seriously never heard of rice christians, Brian? It is shorthand for the problematic ethical practice of linking overseas aid with missionary activity - precisely what Samaritan's Purse seems to specialise in.

This blog raises some of the issues in a contemporary setting, this is the wikipedia definition.

And since you are back on here, can you confirm that you are not actually doing anything at all to promote the leaflet for schools you have just produced - emailing schools, circulating it to the volunteers you send into schools to promote OCC, flagging it prominently on your website, etc? If it is just going to sit there and wait for people to find it of their own accord, it is pretty useless. Writing it is less than half the job - you need to make sure people read it. Surely as 'head of communications' you can see that?

Brian, this from www.alifeoverseas.com, a blog for Western missionaries and humanitarian aid workers:

"About six months into our time overseas, I first heard the term “Rice Christians.”

The term is used among the missionary community to describe nationals who make a profession of conversion (inauthentically or without true understanding) in order to get the product (clothing, food, rice) that is being delivered by the Western worker.

It could go a bit like this: uneducated villagers, a little (or a lot) in awe of the white American, are provided with goods they desperately need, entertainment that encourages their kids, and attention by the wealthy Westerner, all of which they gladly accept. And at some point over the course of the event, the Westerners share honestly about their religion and eventually ask for public professions of faith.

And, seriously, what’s an impoverished person, raised in a culture of respect, supposed to do in light of this turn of events? In many ways, isn’t agreeing with the views of the outsider the most polite and most effective response for the national– the path that both provides for their families while still showing respect for their visitors?

Perhaps, perhaps they become Rice Christians for the day.

And maybe we missionaries don’t really give them many other options."

HTH

SuburbanRhonda - I think I love you! Fab part of a blog coming from the 'horse's mouth' so to speak.

yes the blog is very interesting and it sounds like the writer was sharing her faith in friendship, cooking a meal etc. to me that is the way it should be.

I agree that the American style is full on and heavy handed.

however I know people who live in outer Mongolia and run a cafe. they are on mission but i think it is subtle and about friendship and showing care. to me it is pretty self sacrificial, why would you want to do that and give up a nice comfortable lifestyle or career etc

Neverputasockinatoaster and SuburbanRhonda are you suggesting that Samaritan's Purse is a "Rice Christian" organisation? That is a serious accusation and nothing could be further from the truth.

On Operation Christmas Child there are no 'white Americans' organising shoebox distributions, there are no 'white Americans' leading celebrations and there are no 'white Americans' teaching children about Jesus. I don't know how many times I have already said this but you are obviously not hearing it...pin back your lugholes...it is the LOCAL CHURCHES that organise distributions, it is the LOCAL CHURCHES that lead celebrations and it is the LOCAL CHURCHES that teach children about Jesus, but only those that have accepted a free invitation to go on The Greatest Journey with their parents'/carers' approval.

Am I wasting my time here? Should I go? I have already shown my willingness to listen and act accordingly, it would be nice to see this being reciprocated! Regards, Brian

neverputasockinatoaster you are not cross, you are just hurt and we can all understand why...I'm so sorry

Brian, you are linked to an American Organisation that operates in a very American way.....

You only have to look on the web to hear about White Americans who have witnessed the giving of the boxes........ There are videos on Youtube showing gift giving......

Maybe you should check out the American version of the SP/OCC website and see what we are all seeing?

I've just been to the website and there on the first page I came to was a picture of children. each with a shoe box on their knee, heads bowed in prayer............

Thing is Brian, I'm not going to change my mind. You can't see that , despite all your words to the contrary, your gifts ARE conditional. I think I approach this from a pretty strong position - I'm a Christian and I think you are doign the wrong thing - by you I mean OCC rather than you personally.

And you haven't answered exexpat's question about the boklet for schools.

No, Brian, I'm CROSS!

I was hurt very many years ago.

Now I'm CROSS, not about the way I was treated but about the way other, vulnerable people are bieng treated.

Brian, you completely missed the point of my post.

You asked what is a Rice Christian? I know what it means, but I wanted to find a definition that would make it clear to someone who didn't. So, I introduced my post by saying the clearest definition I could find was from a blog about missionaries. I kind of expected that you would understand that to mean I was defining Rice Christians, not describing the activities of OCC. Let's leave the "serious accusation" conversation for something more befitting of the phrase.

And somehow I get the feeling that you telling never what she does and doesn't feel is not going to endear you to other posters ...

alemci, I think the idea of giving up a comfortable life for a life of missionary work is that the reward will be great in Heaven.

Unless I've missed something

neverputasockinatoaster last year we distributed over nine million shoebox gifts. At a handful of those distribution events, some hard working volunteers do attend and they are usually being filmed. We send around a million shoeboxes from the UK, to 14 countries and we have 30 volunteers going out for a few days to two of them, so we're not talking a major presence are we!

neverputasockinatoaster, my apologies!