AIBU to hate charity Christmas shoe boxes?

[unlucky83]

We get asked to one from the school and from Sunday school ...2 Dcs that is 4 of them...last year I cut it down to 2 - doing the same this year
I really really really hate doing them...but DDs are upset if we don't ...
(at school they have an assembly where the people organising it talk to the DCs about them)...
We wander round the shops/supermarket making sure we get all the essentials on the list - buying the cheapest stuff there is ...kind of think hats/gloves/underwear are probably made by the people we send them back to..
I know I'm not on my own - everyone I know who does one says they do the same ...
Even then each box costs at least £30 ...could the money not be better spent directly by the charity buying good quality stuff that is going to last?
On the lists they say extras - like PJs - how the hell do you fit a pair of PJs for a teenager in a shoe box with all the other stuff...I find I can never fit much 'extra' in...usually just sweets as treats - good job they get toothpaste and toothbrushes or they'd have rotten teeth to add to their misery..

Then you have to find a box...then wrap the bloody things...
I just find it really difficult to wrap the box and lid separately and not get an end result that looks like it has been chewed by the dog...just spent the best part of 30 mins wrapping one that looks like a 2 yr old did it...

So am I being unreasonable to hate them and dread the leaflets coming home?

I've nearly finished my box already this year, I'm all organised for once. This thread has inspired me to get my arse into gear and buy a few more things when out shopping tomorrow!
with a few extra bits and pieces thrown in to make up for all the joyless soul suckers on the thread

Hi Brian

Thank you for answering my first question. Do you have an answer for my second question - at what age would OCC consider young people could decide for themselves? For example, here in the UK young people can legally consent to sex at age 16, drive at 17, get married at 18 and so on. There is also the definition "Gillick competent" for assessing whether young people under 16 are able to consent to their own medical treatment. So, if the young reason aged 16 said "no thank you" to the shoebox, but their parent or carer said "yes please", to whom would the OCC defer?

Sorry if that wasn't clear before.

Also, this from the OCC website:

"Where appropriate, with each shoebox, our church partners will offer a little booklet of Bible stories."

My question is: who decides when it is appropriate to give out the bible stories?

Thanks.

SuburbanRhonda, I don't want to be picky but a child of 16 wouldn't be in such a position as they would be too old to receive a shoebox; the age limit is 14. Operation Christmas Child does not, nor would ever decide which children are to receive shoeboxes, this is decided by local churches in the countries where we work, working with local communities to determine which children are to receive shoeboxes on the basis of need alone.

The little booklet referred to in your post is The Greatest Gift and, again, it is down to the local churches to determine whether or not giving this booklet to children receiving shoeboxes would be appropriate or not. Shoebox distributions are planned months in advance, they don't just turn up unannounced! They know their communities and their community leaders; they decide these things together.

Regards, Brian

Hello Brian, can I just point out that the other thread is still there, and you haven't answered my question yet? www.mumsnet.com/Talk/charities_noticeboard/a1862903-Operation-Christmas-Child#42163156

Hey Exexpat, I thought it had been wrapped up for posterity! Let me go and take a look...

That's not being picky, Brian - I didn't see the bit on your website about the age limit for shoeboxes.

So does that mean that no child over 14 would be offered the discipleship programme?

As to the book of bible stories, I guess if it's up to the local churches, that could mean anything from everyone getting one to no-one getting one! What I meant was what criteria are used by the local churches? For example, if the children were traumatised, or orphaned, or the victims of a natural disaster, would the local churches just give the shoebox or would they give the bible stories also? Do you personally think there would be any circumstance in which it would be considered inappropriate to give a book of bible stories or do you think it's always ok?

Yabu...just do a few of the essentials and dont get competetive about it. Five or ten max????

SuburbanRhonda, shoeboxes are packed for boys and girls with three age ranges: 2-4, 5-9, 10-14. It is only the children receiving shoeboxes that are invited to go on The Greatest Journey, so no child over 14. On the booklets, you need to understand that most of the children receiving a shoebox have no books of their own, nothing to read, so these booklets are often cherished...their very own book! I'd suggest you take a look at this booklet on our website, it isn't at all heavy, or pushy, so I don't really understand why a traumatised would not want to receive it, or why anyone would worry that they did.

As I have said, shoebox distributions are planned months in advance. Part of that planning sees local churches working together to ensure that only the neediest children receive shoeboxes - we don't have enough for every child - and that their parent/s, carer/s and/or responsible adult/s are informed ahead of time. We don't just show up!

An important part of this planning is working with civic and community leaders too. Again, as I have said, it would be counter-productive for us, or the local churches involved to cause offence; we want to be giving shoeboxes to (different) children in these communities every year. So booklets are not distributed in areas where it would be culturally inappropriate to give a booklet that speaks about Jesus.

I have been at distributions where the local Imam has watched proceedings; that says a lot about the relationship local churches have with other faith groups. While shoeboxes were distributed in his presence, I did not see the booklets being distributed. And that is fine.

Does that answer your question? Brian

sara11272 - you asked why people have such strong feelings about OCC. One of the main reasons is that OCC/Samaritan's Purse is a strongly evangelical organisation, but it has not been making that clear in promoting the shoebox campaign to schools.

The majority of children in British schools do not come from evangelical Christian families. I am not sure what proportion of the British population would subscribe to Billy Graham-style evangelism (OCC/Samaritan's Purse is led by Billy Graham's son), but I am pretty sure it is far fewer than those who describe themselves as having no religion (25% at the last census) or as belonging to another religion (Islam, Hinduism, Judaism etc).

Many people, myself included, do not think it is appropriate for young children in British schools to be encouraged to support an organisation with clearly evangelical goals when they (and their families) do not share its beliefs, and when they have not been clearly informed about the evangelical activities which accompany the distribution of the boxes.

And no matter what Brian says, it is not just humanists/atheists who disapprove. There have been many Christians on MN threads who have said they also find OCC unethical, not just for trying to get non-Christian children in the UK to contribute boxes, but also for linking aid with proselytising overseas. All reputable Christian charities (Christian Aid, Cafod etc) make it very, very clear that they never try to push their beliefs to the recipients of aid.

As Brian has admitted above, until now the information provided to schools has been distinctly economical with the truth about OCC's evangelical aims, unlike the material provided to churches and to be found if you look at various OCC/Samaritan's Purse websites, which talk about shoeboxes being 'gospel opportunities' and reaching children for Jesus.

In the past week, Brian has written a leaflet for schools which makes the evangelical angle much clearer, and I have thanked him for that. It goes quite a way towards answering some of my most persistent criticisms of OCC.

However, as far as I can tell, at the moment the leaflet is just sitting on an obscure corner of the OCC website, where you have to go looking for it and register with the site before you can read or download it. So far Brian has not given any indication that OCC is actively informing schools or parents about the existence of the leaflet, even though this year's campaign is already in full swing, so I would guess that its reach this year will be distinctly limited.

I hope that next year OCC will make much more effort to be honest with schools and parents about exactly what OCC is aiming to achieve. If you look at the Samaritan's Purse website, for example, it is clear that targets are based on how many children the organisation can sign up for the 'discipleship programme' and convert to Christianity, rather than on the initial distribution of boxes. following on from the 2013 Operation Christmas Child campaign, Samaritan’s Purse hopes to enroll 1.4 million children from more than 80 countries in The Greatest Journey... It all starts with a shoebox...

If you are an evangelical Christian, that probably strikes you as a good thing, but the majority of parents of children at British primary schools are not, which is why it is not honest or ethical to try to get them to provide the materials to be used to convert children in other countries.

People who don't support Operation Christmas Child are not 'joyless soul suckers' TheInquisitor, they are people who have looked into exactly how OCC operates and choose not to get involved - but if you read the threads, we all offer lots of alternative ways of giving without the ethical issues.

As an atheist, I mainly support non-religious charities all year round rather than doing something specially at Christmas, but some years we have donated toys to our local mayor's appeal for underprivileged children at Christmas, and I would have no qualms at all about my DCs' schools getting involved in something like the Mary's Meals backpack project, which is a charity, founded by two Christians, providing much needed food and school supplies to children in the developing world without trying to convert them to Christianity at the same time. To my mind, that is the most crucial difference.

Many of the comments are ridiculous. I used to love doing this with DCs and we were encouraged to put in things which were not brand new, possibly well loved (ie a sacrifice) and I would never have gone & bought crap from the pound shop. Why turn it into a massive chore and assume you have to fork out 30 quid? I just don't get it. YABVU.

Hi again Brian.

I'd like a link to the Greatest Gift Booklet please. I'd like to be able to read it as you seem to say it is nothing like the unbelievable twaddle of the American version.........

Everywhere I look, everywhere I google, the hits that come up are OCC and SP saying how marvellouslly the shoe boxes will do at evangelising and converting children.

It answers my question in the sense that you explain how the distribution of the booklet (all 95 pages of it!) is rationalised by OCC.

What I don't think I'll ever get is how anyone, faced with a traumatised and vulnerable child, could possibly imagine that enrolling them on a bible study course would be the best way to help and support them.

No need to reply.

never, if you mean "The Greatest Journey", here it is, in all its 95-page glory:

www.scribd.com/mobile/doc/172391443/embed?access_key=key-1uafcotgqky96vw0hyfp&allow_share=true&show_recommendations=false&view_mode=slideshow

Thank you Suburban........

That's quite um 'preachy' isn't it?

I think there's a smaller booklet too that is offered 'alongside' the boxes.

So what generally are the beliefs of Samaritans Purse, what is their stance on homosexuality and abortion? Always get the impression that US evangelical Christian churches are quite different from say your local C of E or C of S.

I hate Adam and Eve, always the bloody woman's fault, she should ave just stuck to being a good little helper I stead of getting too big for her fig leaf.

So do Samaritan's Purse believe in Evolution then or take the old testament as truth?

Neverputasockinatoaster - the booklet Suburban linked to is actually the 12-step bible studies 'discipleship' course, which is the follow-up to the distribution of shoeboxes. The same site has the 'Greatest Gift' booklet which is the one handed out with/alongside/before/after (but definitely not 'inside', as if that actually makes any difference...) the shoeboxes.

(Brian, perhaps you could let us know if these are not the current versions of the booklets?)

Hi Neverputasockinatoaster - you must tell me more about your 'name'. We need to be very clear about what is what, and who does what when it comes down to Operation Christmas Child, The Greatest Journey, the local church, teachers and the children.

Operation Christmas Child is about a gift-filled shoebox being donated by someone over here and shipped to a needy child overseas. Seeing a child's face when they open their box is priceless and anyone providing a shoebox under this programme can rest assured that their box will bring such joy to the child receiving it; loved and not forgotten at Christmas.

The shoebox they receive at a distribution event is distributed by their local church and many churches will put on some kind of event for the children that precedes the shoebox distribution that tells the Christmas story, a nativity play, puppet show, that kind of thing. Once that is done, shoeboxes are distributed, the boxes are opened and the noise level goes up considerably. Where appropriate, The Greatest Gift booklet is given to children receiving a shoebox, either with their shoebox or after they have received it. There is no requirement or obligation placed on any child to take the booklet.

After the distribution event some children receiving a shoebox will be invited to attend a programme called The Greatest Journey, 12 lessons in a classroom environment, put on by their local church, during which time those that accept this free invitation to learn about the Christian faith. These lessons are fun and interactive, no pressure, equivalent to a UK Sunday School lessons, given by local teachers, all of whom are trained and many of whom are already known to the children. It is at the end of Lesson Four that children gain a god grasp of the Gospel message and are given an invitation to follow Jesus. Again no pressure, many do so later in the process, as many again don't bother.

It is my view that Operation Christmas Child simply enables relationship between the child receiving his or her shoebox, their family and the local church. If that relationship is started, the child and his or her family are naturally drawn closer to the church and it is through the ministry of their local church that they will hear the Gospel. In some cases, usually in parallel, the children are in The Greatest Journey 'Sunday School'.

While it is through The Greatest Journey programme that many children will hear the Gospel, and where they will learn about Jesus, this could not happen without Operation Christmas Child. The shoebox is the catalyst, the enabler.

So let me close by saying this. No shoebox, however wrapped and packed, will ever convert or evangelise a child but EVERY shoebox has the potential to bring such joy and happiness to the child receiving it.

Kind regards, Brian

Thanks exexpat!

Not quite as vomit inducing as the one I've seen before - the much older american one but still reads really badly and is overly preachy.

I stand by my assertion that these booklets are badly written but they are taken from the NIV version of the bible which is American.

I should add again that I am a Catholic and I find the whole premise of OCC to be distasteful. Being a Catholic makes me a Christian but I feel this is wrong on so many levels.

I am grateful to have been reminded that OCC season is upon us and I must write once again to the HT of the DC's school and remind him that my children are not to be given OCC/SP literature or take part in any assemblies where OCC is mentioned.

As we do every year we will give gifts to Children in the care system.

I have filled many shoe boxes for OCC in teh past, and genuinely have no quibble with doing so, but if people are worried about the fact that a booklet about Jesus is added in some countries then why not make up some small stockings and distribute to refuges and food banks in the UK? I'm sure that people in need, right here, would be extremely grateful!

Dear all the links to The Greatest Journey curriculum and The Greatest Gift booklet are correct - thank you for those that took the trouble to fins them and post them here! Brian

BlingBlang, I'll be happy to answer your questions, but not tonight, I am tired and I'm going to my bed! Night all! Brian

But, but but... if they are not Christian and they don't live in a Christian society then they won't celebrate Christmas........

And my 'name' is a quote from the amazing Eddie Izzard - a true comic genius.

The way I look at it is this.......

Imagine something truely horrific happened to the UK. Mass famine, collapse of the banking system, whatever. Imagine it left families, like yours Brian, homeless, desperate, penniless.
Now imagine that a non Christian religious group rocked up with boxes of goodies on or around a religious festival of theirs. One that had no meaning to you. Imagine that they invited your children/grandchildren to a fun filled celebration based around that religious festival, handed out boxes of goodies and then offered a leaflet all about their religion. Imagine that your child was too polite to turn them down.
Then imagine your child was invited to some 'fun' sessions to learn more about the religion. Your child might really want to go - life hasn't been fun for a while and these people are offering fun. So you let them go and after a few 'lessons' they come home talking about how the religion is the 'one true faith'..............

Hmmmmm?

(Oh, and Brian? I'm a primary school teacher. I spend my days looking at well written material with children. I have a love of books. I know a poorly written text when I see one......... Take it from me - The Greatest Gift and The Greatest Journey are poorly written)

Excellent point, never (or should that be sock)?

Brian describes, maybe without realising, how evangelical work is so effective. He writes of families being brought together to receive the shoeboxes, an event being put on, such as show of some sort, then "the noise level goes up considerably" when the boxes are given out. You can imagine the hysteria and excitement of the children - they couldn't be more ripe for indoctrination at that point.

We've all seen videos on TV showing evangelicals falling to the floor, speaking in tongues, losing control. To do that to children in order to peddle "the Gospel" is immoral.

If Brian truly believes that the shoeboxes don't evangelise children, then he is being utterly disingenuous about the whole process.

justforlaughs, there are many people who have posted on here that they support non-evangelical charities, instead of ones like OCC. That doesn't make the methods used by the OCC to evangelise vulnerable children acceptable, though.

And I find it interesting that when I started a thread on volunteers offering to say a prayer to users of my local food bank, a great many posters suggested the way to make this "ok" would be to set up a non-religious food bank. Same old arguments to justify the same old methods.