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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to hate charity Christmas shoe boxes?

314 replies

unlucky83 · 30/09/2013 17:55

We get asked to one from the school and from Sunday school ...2 Dcs that is 4 of them...last year I cut it down to 2 - doing the same this year
I really really really hate doing them...but DDs are upset if we don't ...
(at school they have an assembly where the people organising it talk to the DCs about them)...
We wander round the shops/supermarket making sure we get all the essentials on the list - buying the cheapest stuff there is ...kind of think hats/gloves/underwear are probably made by the people we send them back to..
I know I'm not on my own - everyone I know who does one says they do the same ...
Even then each box costs at least £30 ...could the money not be better spent directly by the charity buying good quality stuff that is going to last?
On the lists they say extras - like PJs - how the hell do you fit a pair of PJs for a teenager in a shoe box with all the other stuff...I find I can never fit much 'extra' in...usually just sweets as treats - good job they get toothpaste and toothbrushes or they'd have rotten teeth to add to their misery..

Then you have to find a box...then wrap the bloody things...
I just find it really difficult to wrap the box and lid separately and not get an end result that looks like it has been chewed by the dog...just spent the best part of 30 mins wrapping one that looks like a 2 yr old did it...

So am I being unreasonable to hate them and dread the leaflets coming home?

OP posts:
gooner1956 · 13/10/2013 22:13

Hello dear friends, I have already told you that I believe homophobia is a sin and that I am not homophobic. I also told you that I have met and know several gay people who, when they're being totally honest with me AND with themselves, tell me that they are, deep down, desperately unhappy with their lifestyle. That's why I said what I said.

I thought I'd do a quick search on Google to find reputable support for my position

Check out: www.nhs.uk/Livewell/LGBhealth/Pages/Mentalhealth.aspx and you will find an NHS article entitled:

Studies show that lesbian, gay and bisexual people show higher levels of anxiety, depression and suicidal feelings than heterosexuals.

Check out: www.theguardian.com/theobserver/2010/aug/22/gay-attitude-depression-isolation and you will find an article entitled:

Breaking the taboo over the mental health crisis among Britain's gay men

I believe the NHS and The Guardian newspaper to be reputable sources, you may disagree - you probably will - but I believe what I know and have experienced is not as outrageous as you would have me believe.

Brian

beakysmum · 13/10/2013 22:18

I have a question....

What do you and others think about other things organised by religious organisations, as they usually include some invite to that religion or some info about that religion, so are ultimately proselytising?

So I'm thinking about all the summer holiday clubs, toddler groups, football clubs etc etc that churches especially offer. They often have a "God slot" during them, or an invite to a service later or whatever. Is that wrong? Or is that ok because there is less of a power imbalance between those offering the fun activities and those taking them up than there is with shoe boxes and food banks?

How should churches evangelise? (Bearing in mind you probably think they shouldn't at all, but should all be vaporised Wink)
Someone said earlier that relying on the message itself would be better and more honest, but doesn't that take us to people standing on street corners shouting the message (which I loathe).

SuburbanRhonda · 13/10/2013 22:20

The problem I see is that in certain areas, religious organisations have the monopoly on provision of services (food banks is one). I would prefer there to be more secular provision, i.e. services that are independent of religion and therefore represent all religions and none, so that I could donate to a charity or (in my work) signpost someone to a service knowing there is no religious agenda to complicate the issue.

Some rather pompous posters have suggested the reason there are no secular services is because it is only Christians who can be "bothered" to provide these services. Sadly, the explanation is not that simple.

But because there are so many religious charities and services, I really feel they should make more of an effort, not less, to think about what the vulnerable person might want or need, not what their own wants and needs are.

beakysmum · 13/10/2013 22:24

Yes, I really agree with all you've just said.

And it's hardly loving or charitable to force your own agenda on those you think you are helping.

SuburbanRhonda · 13/10/2013 22:27

That's a very funny post, Brian, bearing in mind what you posted upthread about never believing everything you read on the internet.

Be honest, Brian, you've been absent from this thread because you've just spent hours dredging up articles to support your pernicious views on homosexuality. Shame on you.

kiriwawa · 13/10/2013 22:28

beakys - personally I think that's different because you might expect a spot of proselytizing if you go to Messy Church or something. What makes OCC different is that it's sneaky and its without parental consent.

Brian - I have nothing but disdain for your position on homosexuality. And I do believe this is a very good reason for no State school to have nothing to do with OCC.

gooner1956 · 13/10/2013 22:30

SuburbanRhonda, we should be grateful for Christians and Christian Churches who can be 'bothered' to provide foodbanks. In much the same way that Christians and Christian Churches in the past 'bothered' to provide social services, education and healthcare; it was Christians and Christian Churches who 'bothered; to take the initiative to build care homes, orphanages, hospitals, schools and universities.

Maybe we should leave food banks where they are, and be grateful for the Christians and Christian Churches who are running them.

SuburbanRhonda · 13/10/2013 22:32

beaky, entente cordiale declared, I think! Smile

gooner1956 · 13/10/2013 22:33

SuburbanRhonda you are priceless; I have been out all afternoon and it is only when I came back and saw the vitriole against me that I did a quick Google Search - took all of one minute. Brian

SuburbanRhonda · 13/10/2013 22:35

Brian, it is not about being "bothered" and you know it.

It is a trade-off between giving up your time to provide the service and getting the bums on seats that your organisation and others insist on in their "mission statements".

SuburbanRhonda · 13/10/2013 22:37

'Course it did, Brian.

HoldMeCloserTonyDanza · 13/10/2013 22:37

FWIW MNHQ got back to me and apparently Brian "checks out".

It's nice to see the old adage of giving someone enough rope to hang themselves proved so true.

What an unpleasant "charity".

beakysmum · 13/10/2013 22:38

Suburban - Yay! Smile

SuburbanRhonda · 13/10/2013 22:39

Thanks for letting us know, HoldMeCloser.

Still no less depressing just because he's on here talking to us, though Sad

trockodile · 13/10/2013 22:41

Brian, so far I have not seen a lot of Christlike behaviour from you. You have been patronising, passive aggressive and generally unlike able. You have certainly done nothing to change my mind on the ethics of shoebox charity.

I know a lot of gay people, both in real life and as Facebook and twitter friends. Without exception the ones who are damaged and have suffered problems is because of bullying, exclusion, being abandoned by their familiy and the church and people like you telling them that who they are and who they love is not acceptable to God. The only thing that Jesus tells us to do is love our neighbour and to not judge. He makes no mention of the 'love the sinner, hate the sin' mentality which so many Christians piously hide behind.

I don't agree with everything Steve Chalke says or does, but I have enormous respect for the fact that he is prepared to examine and challenge his traditional evangelical beliefs and to acknowledge the harm these views have caused.
I will copy and paste these here in the hope that it counters some of the harm your views could potentially do.
"
A Pastoral Plea
Why am I so passionate about this issue? Because people's lives are at stake. Numerous studies show that suicide rates among gay people, especially young people, are comparatively high. Church leaders sometimes use this data to argue that homosexuality is unhealthy when tragically it's anti-gay stigma, propped up by Church attitudes, which, all too often, drives these statistics.

I believe that when we treat homosexual people as pariahs and push them outside our communities and churches; when we blame them for what they are; when we deny them our blessing on their commitment to lifelong, faithful relationships, we make them doubt whether they are children of God, made in his image.

So, I face a hard choice; a choice between the current dominant view of what scripture tells us about this issue and the one I honestly think it points us to. This is why I seek to speak and write openly and, I hope, graciously, to encourage a compassionate, respectful and honest conversation that might lead to our churches becoming beacons of inclusion.

None of this is to point the finger at others. I have remained silent, for fear of damaging important relationships. Even in this I realise my self-centredness, for no rejection I might suffer is anything compared to what so many homosexual people endure all their lives.

I understand that there are those who will take other views to me. I respect their right to differ graciously with me just as I try to do the same with them. However, I believe that as the leader of a local church, a charity and many thousands of young people in schools and staff around the country and the world, I am called to offer support, protection, and blessing in the name of Christ, the king of justice, reconciliation, and inclusion, who beckons each one of us out of isolation into the joy of faithful relationship.

Rather than condemn and exclude, can we dare to create an environment for homosexual people where issues of self-esteem and wellbeing can be talked about; where the virtues of loyalty, respect, interdependence and faithfulness can be nurtured, and where exclusive and permanent same-sex relationships can be supported?

Tolerance is not the same as Christ-like love. Christ-like love calls us to go beyond tolerance to want for the other the same respect, freedom, and equality one wants for oneself. We should find ways to formally support and encourage those who are in, or wish to enter into, faithful same-sex partnerships, as well as in their wider role as members of Christ's body.

I end where I started; in the coming months there will be huge and often heated debate around gay marriage. I am committed to listening and trying to understand the intricacies of the arguments on both sides. But, whatever the outcome and whichever side of the debate we find ourselves on, my hope is that as Christians we face what I think is the central issue - what does real, Christ-like, inclusion look like?"

www.oasisuk.org/inclusionresources/Articles/MOIabridged

beakysmum · 13/10/2013 22:42

kiriwawa - interesting point. I suppose I would view anything "given" by any religion would probably have strings attached, whether a club or a shoe box. I must be cynical! Nowt for free, is there?

But I guess it's all part of marketing an organisation. Like Chuggers, no-one particularly likes them, but they have a job to do.

gooner1956 · 13/10/2013 22:43

SuburbanRhonda I don't know if you are a Christian or not but if you were you would understand what motivates Christians and Christian organisations to act the way that they do. Especially evangelical Christians and evangelical Christian organisations...if you are not a Christian, it would explain the angst you (and others) feel and express when you see Christians doing what they do!

exexpat · 13/10/2013 22:46

Brian, has it possibly occurred to you that the reason many gay people have suffered from depression, suicidal feelings etc is because people like you have repeatedly told them that their feelings go against the bible, they are unnatural, sinful, shameful etc, and they have felt the need to hide their sexuality? I think that would be enough to make anyone depressed and despairing.

However, I presume much of the data now available would relate to people who grew up in earlier, less tolerant decades - thankfully much has changed now, so I would expect that in future, far fewer gay people will have those mental health issues.

I was born around the time when homosexuality was decriminalised, but as I was growing up, it was still seen as a bit scandalous if a public figure was revealed to be gay (lots of scandals in the 70s, and even 80s and 90s). Many of my gay friends did not feel able to come out at school, or even at university in some cases. Now, however, it has all changed. There is still intolerance and homophobia in places, of course, but we have openly gay MPs (mine is one - it was not remotely an issue when he was running for election), gay teachers (the deputy head of my children's CofE primary school was in a civil partnership with one of the other teachers), of course many gay celebrities, and many teenagers are not surprisingly much more confident about being open about their orientation. I hope that for my children's generation, whether someone is straight or gay will be of as little importance as what kind of music they like or whether they are good at sport.

BoulevardOfBrokenSleep · 13/10/2013 22:47

"So what anyone thinks on issues like homosexuality, abortion and evolution is really unimportant; it's only what God says that will stand the test of time."

Right. So Leviticus 18:22 is God's unchanging wisdom that passes down the ages, whereas in Leviticus 19:19 he was just... having a laugh?

SuburbanRhonda · 13/10/2013 22:51

It's not "angst" Brian. It's disbelief that people like you can be so arrogant that you think if you provide a service, you are entitled to wrap it up with religion, regardless of who your target audience is.

Just out of interest, Brian, do your gay friends know that you are posting links to articles about mental health problems amongst gay people, in order to justify your view that their lifestyle is wrong?

trockodile · 13/10/2013 22:53

Another fabulous quote from Archbishop Desmond Tutu mirrors my view on the subject;

""I would refuse to go to a homophobic heaven. No, I would say sorry, I mean I would much rather go to the other place," Archbishop Tutu said at the launch of the Free and Equal campaign in Cape Town.

"I would not worship a God who is homophobic and that is how deeply I feel about this.""

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-23464694

SuburbanRhonda · 13/10/2013 22:53

trockodile, what a moving article.

If only OCC and its ilk had the strength of character to speak out in this way.

exexpat · 13/10/2013 22:59

Brian, please read this: Learning to truly love our gay son

Can you honestly say that the story would have had the same ending if the parents' religious beliefs had not made them attempt to 'cure' their son?

SuburbanRhonda · 13/10/2013 23:10

Exexpat, that is truly heartbreaking.

All gone quiet in Brian's camp, I see.

gooner1956 · 13/10/2013 23:21

SuburbanRhonda I have repeatedly stated that I do not judge people, least of all my friends. While working in Switzerland, I was confronted by a gay man, he told me I would not like him. I asked him why. He said that I was a Christian and that he was gay. I hadn't told him I was a Christian! I then asked why he thought I, as a Christian, would not like him. He then said: 'Because God hates homosexuals'.

I was horrified. I told him that while the Bible clearly states that homosexuality is a sin, I told him that it wasn't the only sin mentioned in the Bible! I told him that I also sinned, that I was no different, that I sinned every day. The only difference between us was that I believed Jesus had paid the price for my sin, that I could repent and receive forgiveness. He burst into tears. He told me that his father had been a CofE vicar who had disowned him and thrown him out of his home, telling him that he would 'burn in hell'. He and I became close friends and we shared much together. Before I returned home I gave him a copy of a book: What's so amazing about Grace? I don't know if he read it but the thought was there. Was that prosletysing? Was that evangelising? I don't know. What I do know is, for the first time, that man knew he was loved by God and that God had made it possible for my friend to know Him as I do.....