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To be miffed about ds getting 'told off' for the content of his packed lunch

294 replies

Squiffie · 25/09/2013 19:48

DS had a packed lunch consisting of:

A chicken wrap
Banana
Grapes
Rice pudding
A bottle of very dilute squash

In addition to this he had 3 or 4 jelly sweets that I'd popped in with his grapes as a treat, for which he got 'told off' by a member of lunchtime staff. Am I seriously not allowed to choose the contents of his lunch box?!

OP posts:
PeppiNephrine · 26/09/2013 15:51

Saying no sweets is a petty and arbitrary rule? Bet its neither when you say it at home!

Also arguing that your children can eat shit because there is shit on the school menu is a bit self defeating.

MadeOfStarDust · 26/09/2013 15:54

pizza is BREAD, cooked TOMATO AND CHEESE - you know - like a sandwich but healthier - with all that lycopene from the cooked tomato puree.....

Squiffie · 26/09/2013 16:03

Most European countries (where incidentally respect and willingness to learn is much better) don't have uniform and find the idea abhorrent.

OP posts:
MadeOfStarDust · 26/09/2013 16:06

Squiffie was not my experience at all in France (Poitiers), respect and willingness to learn levels were pretty poor... considering the unemployment levels in central France I was not surprised....

PaperSeagull · 26/09/2013 16:07

Banning sweets while allowing chocolate and biscuits? Yes, petty and arbitrary.

How is pizza categorically healthier than a sandwich? Wouldn't that depend on the pizza and the sandwich you are comparing?

MadeOfStarDust · 26/09/2013 16:11

sorry just assuming the same ingredients.... bread, cheese, tomato...... cooked tomatoes are nowadays considered "healthier" than raw...

hence a school dinner plain pizza cannot be considered unhealthy, if a packed lunchbox would be considered "healthy" with a cheese and tomato sandwich....

PaperSeagull · 26/09/2013 16:17

O.K., gotcha. I don't actually have anything against pizza per se (though I doubt that a school dinner pizza would include the best ingredients, so a sandwich might well be healthier IMO). I was really commenting on the hypocrisy of school officials who claim to be concerned about nutrition but happily provide very unbalanced meals and sugary treats.

NeverGetTheBestOfMe · 26/09/2013 16:27

It's not so much about the actual rules (sweets or uniform) it's about the fact the school has made a reasonable policy which a lot of parents are happy with yet because some think it's stupid they think it is their right to undermine to policy.

Like me saying to staff at work that I would like all of them to wear this (something reasonable) and to do this in a certain way (again a reasonable request) because that is how i would like the business run and some of them saying they won't do it that way because they think it's stupid.

But back to the issue of the OP - a no sweets policy is perfectly acceptable and I do not see why some are defending this as an issue? Can you not just give them sweets after school if you want to? It's like someone said in this thread - you cannot determine with 30 kids in the class who can have sweets and who can't because little jimmy has a healthy lunch everyday so can have sweets but little max can't because he had cake in his lunch on Wednesday etc. It is too complicated and I am sure those who have worked in schools at lunchtime could tell you some scary stories about what kids have in their lunchboxes. So it is easy to say no sweets to all then to cherry pick.

NeverGetTheBestOfMe · 26/09/2013 16:34

"I dont have all the answers to run a school. I dont have to, it is not my job. It is not what I am paid to do."

There you see, you said it yourself - it is not your job but you think you know best. It is the same in business - employees always think they could run it better and know best (like I used to) but then when you do get the chance to run things you realise you don't know it all and actually things are not as simple as "they could just do this" and "why don't they just do that."

If your school decide pupils must wear X and not bring in sweets then it is not your job to say otherwise.

Fairenuff · 26/09/2013 16:42

These comments:

If the head spends even a nanosecond thinking about school uniform or school lunches then he is wasting his time

Have rules about things which matter. Rules about trivia encourage a lack of respect for all rules

then the attention turns to obsessively trying to control top buttons (undone or done up), blazers and school shoes. All also equally irrelevant to academic performance but an essential part of trivia management

remind me of The Broken Window theory here

It was found that taking care over small, seemingly insignificant problems, prevented them from escalating.

If a window in a building is broken by vandalism and not repaired, it won't be long before more windows are broken and more damaged caused to the building. But if the window is repaired promptly, the building will be left alone, safe and unharmed, for longer.

If a school makes a rule they have to enforce it. If allowances or exceptions are made to uniform, or hairstyles, or sweets in school, etc. then there is no point having the rule. Children could wear what they want, eat what they want and, before long, start coming into school late if they want, or taking days off if they want, etc. It escalates.

"In 2007 and 2008 Kees Keizer and colleagues from the University of Groningen conducted a series of controlled experiments to determine if the effect of existing disorder (such as litter or graffiti) increased the incidence of additional crime like stealing, littering or conducting other acts of antisocial behavior."

"They selected several urban locations which they then arranged in two different ways, at different times. In one condition—the control—the place was maintained orderly. It was kept free from graffiti, broken windows, etc. In the other condition—the experiment—exactly the same environment was arranged in a way where it looked like nobody monitored it and cared about it: windows were broken, graffiti were placed on the walls, among other things."

"The researchers then secretly monitored the locations to observe if people behaved differently when the environment was disordered. The results supported the theory. Their conclusion, published in the journal Science, was that:

One example of disorder, like graffiti or littering, can indeed encourage another, like stealing."

So the school needs firm rules and the parents should respect and follow them:

"People in the community also need to lend a hand towards crime prevention. The theory that Newman proposes is that people will take care of and protect their own spaces they feel they have an investment in, arguing that an area will eventually be safer if the people feel a sense of ownership and responsibility towards the area."

"The reason why broken windows and acts of vandalism are still prevalent is because communities simply do not seem to care for it. Regardless of how many times the windows have been repaired, the society still has to invest some of their time to keep it safe. The negligence of society towards any form of a "broken window" signifies the a lack of concern for the community."

School is a community in itself and when parents attempt to 'bend' the rules, they are showing a lack of concern for the school community that they send their children to every day.

Keeping standards high means seeing those little 'insignificant' rules for what they are. Purposeful, helpful and applicable to all for the good of the community.

WorrySighWorrySigh · 26/09/2013 17:05

NeverGetTheBestOfMe

The things I was expecting of the head were hardly rocket science - employ competent staff (and dont wait for them to fail spectacularly to deal with the problem), dont lose coursework, enter students into the correct GCSE English exams.

The latter (entering students into the correct GCSE English exam) was achieved by pretty much every other school in England.

The descent of the school to the very bottom of the school league table was achieved entirely by management incompetence. This has been recognised as the head now has to have a seconded-in associate head to hold his hand.

Pasta pots and blazers were simply a distraction.

mrspremise · 26/09/2013 17:09

People are always bringing the apparent 'double standard' of 'chocolate puddings' as part of hot school lunches. These are invariably made using cocoa for flavour, rather than fatty oversweet 'candy bar' type of chocolate. A 'no sweets' rule is still a rule, whether it is '3 or 4' or '10 or 20'. Some people just seem to think that the rules don't apply to them. You can't only break rules 'a bit', ffs!

WorrySighWorrySigh · 26/09/2013 17:16

I dont agree Fairenuff, deciding not to have a rule say about top buttons or sweets is not the same as allowing small rules to be broken. It is saying that these are things you have chosen not to control.

We have lived elsewhere and experienced a system where the schools limited their sphere of influence to education and left clothes and food to parents. This system had not caused society to descend into chaos.

In my opinion we give far too much control to schools on subjects (clothes and food) which they are not specialists in.

Fairenuff · 26/09/2013 17:19

That's ok worry, you don't have to agree Smile

Incidentally, the top schools in the country - do they have strict uniform controls do you think?

Snazzyenjoyingsummer · 26/09/2013 17:20

But as you have said yourself, WorrySigh, you aren't a specialist in these things either.

SamPull · 26/09/2013 17:22
nkf · 26/09/2013 17:23

Told off? As in scolded? I doubt it. Probably told not to bring sweets. Of course they should have written a letter because some.parents need telling over and over again

nkf · 26/09/2013 17:27

I think those carbo squares with custard have quite a lot going for.them. there's protein in the custard for starters. I bet they've filled and cheered many s cold, hungry kid over the years.

lagertops · 26/09/2013 17:29

I'm tired of people using the 'If someone can't respect school rules then they won't be employable' argument, especially over some fucking sweets.

I'd much rather my child was an intelligent and conscientious individual who challenged these irrelevant, jobs worthy rules as opposed to conforming and being unhappy. Who knows? They might decide that they don't want to work 9-5 Monday to Friday, wear a suit, but be self-employed for example and be leaders because they don't want to be ground down by rules made by people who just hate it when the minions think for themselves.

NeverGetTheBestOfMe · 26/09/2013 17:29

Fairenuff - that is what I have been trying to get across but you have done it way better than I have and it rings true to a situation I had when I went back to work.

An employee had been getting away with things that should have been nipped in the bud as they came along but the boss kept turning a blind eye because they seemed to be trivial matters not worth dealing with but as a consequence those trivial matters mounted up into a bigger problem. When I came back I had the difficult task of putting said employee back into line which took months of me having to first evaluate the situation because I had to see said things being done by my own eyes as a continuous problem rather than a one off to gather evidence (all the while having other employees moaning to me about said employee because they think everything is instant and that I can "just sack her" without thinking I actually have to go through a correct procedure in order to not be taken to a tribunal or the like.) I then had the wonderful task of holding a meeting with said employee (who isn't the easiest to deal with) because the trivial matters had mounted to a "poor working performance" which highlighted several issues to deal with and tasks to aim for improvement. Then I had months of monitoring said employee to ensure standards did not slip.

All that just because the boss had let slide the "trivial things" because he felt they weren't important. The improvements in her work is 10 times better now she has guidelines and boundaries to follow rather than being left free reign to do as she pleased.

NeverGetTheBestOfMe · 26/09/2013 17:35

lagertops - being self employed doesn't mean you have free reign on everything. The amount of rules and procedures you have to follow are worse then being an employee. Even a small business has to jump through hoops to please the Government or get heavily penalised. There are rules and procedures everywhere in our lives whether you decide to work in a shop or start your own business. Somewhere down the line there will always be a procedure to follow.

Squiffie · 26/09/2013 17:36

For the umpteenth time - I've never been made aware of this rule and therefore was not in a position to follow it! I wasn't deliberately ignoring or trying to undermine authority. Fwiw, I know exactly how a (secondary) school is run as I'm a teacher, well ex teacher as I've taken time out to raise my children.

OP posts:
lagertops · 26/09/2013 17:39

NeverGet

I get what you're saying, but I'm not talking about tax returns here. At least if you're your own boss you don't have to fart about worrying about the small things. Like 'can I go into work with earrings or not.'

Arabesque · 26/09/2013 17:41

Don't blame the school. Blame the idiot parents who would send their kids to school everyday with a packet of crisps, a mars bar and a can of coke if a brake wasn't put on them.
Its the same with everything in life. Strict rules that are unnecessary for the majority of people have, nevertheless, to be applied because of the minority of irresponsible, inconsiderate or selfish people who won't behave reasonably unless there's a rule or law that says they have to.

nkf · 26/09/2013 17:45

You are making a are a fuss over nothing. If you are an ex teacher, you must have taught in the ark because schools have working these kind of policies for ages