For all those who won't fold for wheelchairs YABU

[GobbySadcase]

only now it's legally recognised

blows raspberries

WD40 was that for the baby?

I've been forced off a bus and not allowed on one due to not enough space, missing drs appointments

There are taxis, you know.

Made handing it to a stranger more entertaining.

Beast, it wasnt you that i thought was saying it :)

As i said in my first post, I just think it would be easier if all disability related reasons for priority for the space were classed together, and the first disabled person there had the right to stay there. And any extras who then need the space can be the ones who are helped to use a standard seat. Cause even amongst wheelchair users there could be arguments about who deserves the space more!
(In my area btw, there are 2 wheelchair / four buggy spaces, hence why this is all theoretical)

And most of all, clarity of what exactly the law is.

I can't believe there are people out there who would refuse to let a disabled person have the space

Oh there are. I've seen it. Entitled parents who laugh at a wheelchair user. And look at some of the responses on this thread. Saying it's discriminatory to require parents to fold prams!

We're ALL of us only TABs: Temporarily Able Bodied.

Gingersnap This happened to me, tho' the mother in question did have a sleeping 3/4 yr old but in easily foldable buggy. I offered to help her fold, but it was "I was here first" and "I'm not waking him up".

The bus driver just played the 'Please vacate the wheelchair area' message on a loop' till one of the other passengers said, 'Get off the bus then, you silly caah.' (London) So she did.

Felt so sorry for the embarrassed wheelchair user, though.

I always factored in at least an extra half an hour if I had to make it to appointments. I'd rather have to wait an extra half hour in a waiting room than be late and inconvenience others.

I have only once seen a wheelchair user not able to get on a bus and that was because the space was already occupied by a wheelchair. Luckily we have plenty of buses. And tbh I've only seen a pushchair user have to be asked to fold twice as well - and there were plenty of willing helpers.

beyond I understand why you are saying that there is no hierarchy of whose disability matters most. I agree with that completely. I wonder about the exact solution you have put forward, though- only because a blind person, for example, could be asked to move to another seat and then both the blind person and the wheelchair user can travel. But I do see the grey area where folding things up becomes almost as bad as waiting for the next bus.

In a rural area where it's two buses a day I could see an argument for the make do and mend approach; in London I could see an argument for the first come first served approach.

Actually what I think is an even bigger scandal is the cost and availability of a decent wheelchair taxi. Unless you drive, you are in the hands of these taxis and they do not provide a flexible and fair service, oh no. Unless you have a diddy little wheelchair that you can get ito a standard cab, you are stuffed if they cancel. Which they do far too often considering what they charge

The situation is a bit shit, Beast. Which makes the fact that there are wheelchair spaces even more important, and that the spaces are used properly.

Absolutely!

Still in shock at able bodied parents saying its unfair to be asked to fold their buggies

Fantastic that he won the ruling but very sad that it was necessary in the first place. As far as I can see, it's very clear. Those spaces are specifically for wheelchair users, and were fought for very hard. As a concession, if the space is not needed, it can be used for pushchairs at the driver's discretion.I don't understand how people can argue that they shouldn't be asked to leave the bus if a wheelchair user needs the space.At the risk of sounding ancient and stroppy, many of us took babies and toddlers on public transport before you were allowed to wheel a pushchair on. We managed.

Agreed. And I remember just walking. A lot. Or using taxis.

I think the real problem is the concession that if a space is not needed for a wheelchair user, then it can have a couple of buggies in it.

Because what happens or what I've seen happen is that the driver, and the passengers, assume the bus is full, and so don't even allow other passengers including wheelchair users, on the bus in the first place.

It seems to me that's part of the problem with not folding: the whole kit & caboodle takes up so much room -- more than a folded stroller or buggy, and then the parent + child sitting in the normal part of the bus. So it looks as though the bus is full, when it actually isn't.

And let's not get started on school children with free travel, barging in and taking up seats so that full fare paying adult passengers have to stand!

Dons flameproof armour and wonders when I became an old fogey

Ah, now my buses also have seats designated for sight issues and people with reduced mobility but who dont require the wheelchair space. Beginning to appreciate my bus company!

UptheChimney, we need an old fogey club.

I had three, aged just four and under, back in the early 1990s and we never went near a bus; buses were the transport from hell. We walked mainly.

I remember taking twins (aged about 5 months) on the train to the metrocentre. Only did it once, never ever again with a double buggy.

I am in a wheelchair and have been left at the bus stop on 3 occasions in the last 5 months - 1 because a woman refused to fold a double buggy, 1 because the driver wouldn't ask the 2 buggies already on there to fold and 1 because the driver refused to put the ramp down even though the space was free

If a buggy gets on after I am on I will hold the baby/toddler so it can be folded

It is really embarrassing sitting there while a mother argues/refuses to fold as everyone looks at you for being the cause of it

I've been sworn at and shouted at by mothers who've been asked to fold

Last week after I got on the bus the ramp wouldn't go back in so the driver took a few minutes to sort it out and so many people were moaning that the ramp had to be used in the first place and I was making them late

I try and avoid school run time as I know there will be huge problems getting on the bus

What non-folders are too short-sighted to see is that ultimately they will be the ones who lose out. Them and all the sensible, considerate pram users. Bus companies operate on a shoe string they cannot afford to take the risk that they will have to pay out £5000+ every time someone in a wheelchair cannot access the space. They also cannot operate a reliable service if every time someone refuses to fold they have to stay put in a half hour stand off or wait for the police to arrive. They'll have no option but to require all pushchairs to be folded before getting on.

IcaMorgan I feel I need to apologize to you on behalf of all able-bodied tossers. Really really distressing & depressing to read of your experiences.

I wonder if there's a MN campaign in this somewhere?

To reinforce that wheelchair spaces are for wheelchairs
To encourage passengers to help each other and especially parents loaded with children & shopping so that there's room for everyone (I'll always hold a baby for anyone! I miss holding babies cos mine's now a strapping lad)
To encourage bus companies to be really clear about policies
To encourage bus designers to ask those with mobility impairments and parents to see if they can co-operate in new designs

Oh, there's a lot to do, isn't there? To make public transport really serve its users.

I wonder if it's because "public transport" is seen as only for 2nd-rate citizens (remember Thatcher's opinions of those who took buses to work?)

Ica, that makes for depressing reading. I can only imagine being the one being denied your right to that space is even more depressing.

This is why people should speak up if someone won't fold, even if it doesn't affect them directly.

And anyone who tuts at having 5 minutes put on their journey so that someone using a wheelchair can access a bus, is an absolute twat and should be ashamed of themselves.

Ica DD has been sworn at, too. She just looks at them and says, yes, but I'm beautiful and clever, what have you other than working legs?
As for the twins argument, I had twins, one of whom was disabled and a 19 month old. We managed, and we ALWAYS moved for those who needed it more, until dd was too big for a buggy and moved on to a Major.

Horah, great news op.

Shame on the disablist buggy fold refusing people having to force law changes, by their selfish behavior.

Having met the guy who took this action, I'm not at all surprised he won.

However I am also amazed at those parents who seem to think it is an impossibility to get on a bus having folded a buggy. It's tricky at first, but you get used to it quite quickly. Is it because the newer buggies, though looking quite cool, are actually rubbish for getting on and off public transport? We just deliberately picked a buggy that was easy to fold one handed.
Can someone explain to this mum of older kids why it's more difficult to fold nowadays?

And anyone who tuts at having 5 minutes put on their journey so that someone using a wheelchair can access a bus, is an absolute twat and should be ashamed of themselves
Yes, I agree. When London buses first started accommodating wheelchairs, I remember finding it fascinating to watch how the mechanics of it worked. That more than made up for the 2 or 3 minutes it took for a wheelchair user to exit the bus. The technology on those buses is awesome -- makes me think it could be even better and more passenger-friendly if designers & companies really put their minds to it.

If a parent using a buggy is disabled themselves and thus, cannot fold their buggy, then I'd hope that other passengers would help. Standing there and refusing to move if you're an ambulatory disabled person will make you come across as a twat. Just be honest, say you've got a physical condition. Yes, I know it's a PITA to tell a bus load of randomers you have a disability but if people can't tell by looking at you, you cannot expect them to be psychic.