For all those who won't fold for wheelchairs YABU

[GobbySadcase]

only now it's legally recognised

blows raspberries

[Weller]

It is the need of the disabled person which needs to be met, the individual person. Wheel chair space are installed for wheel chair use as priority. In the same way as blue badge, being disabled does not entitle you to one but your needs do. It is not one disabled person trumping another it is meeting the needs of individuals. A disabled person who could not fold or carry a baby safely should really inform the driver so the driver knows the circumstances before a wheelchair user tries to board. When in the states they gave me a large sticker for a major Maclaren with a wheel chair picture on it I could see this as a way forward. As this and other threads prove people will abuse for their own benefit.

[BarbarianMum]

Of course, ProudAS

What I was trying to get at is that individuals do (legally) have to respect the right of wheelchair users to access these 'Wheelchair Spaces'. It is not enough for the bus company to supply them then not make them be accessible by moving other travelers, if necessary.

A lot of people upthread have said that if individuals refuse to move the driver can't make them. I'm disagreeing with that.

[ProudAS]

*Although superseded by the equality act the DDA is unique in anti-discrimination law in this country as it does allow discrimination in favour of a disabled person.

So you can allow a disabled person to jump a queue, sit in a preferred sat, allow their assistance dog into a place food is sold etc.

Yes it is discrimination, a blind person can take their guide dog into a restaurant, I can't take my cat. Yes I am discriminated against, but I am a sensible human being. I can see the point.
*

Whilst treating a disabled person more favourably may be legal in some circumstances I would not describe the situations sassh describes as discrimination.

If queueing, having to sit elsewhere, not being able to take dog into restaurant etc will place a disabled person at substantial disadvantage then it is only right that allowances are made.

[Sirzy]

Awful behaviour from the driver Ica :( must be so frustating having that worry every time you want to go out.

I can't believe the bus driver didn't even have the manners to apologise to you, let alone do the right thing by making them move.

[YouTheCat]

Ica that is just terrible.

[ProudAS]

Well said PatPig

Barbarian - conditions of carriage, notices on bus etc do not supercede the equality act and failure to make reasonable adjustments for any disabled person is illegal.

[IcaMorgan]

Well it happened again today.

Was sitting at the bus stop and my bus came along, I put my arm out so he knew to put the ramp down and he pulled up right beside me, let people off and as there were 2 buggies on already he didn't bother to ask them to fold he just drove off without saying a word to me.

I was so fed up with this happening I called TFL and put in a complaint about it and am supposed to have a written response within 10 days telling what has been done about it.

Luckily it was only 4 minutes before another one turned up, there was a buggy on already but the driver got her to fold it which she did no problem (although she held the folded buggy in the way for me to try and get into the space).

[YouTheCat]

There is a law. It is contained within some amendments to the Equality Act 2010 but I can't find a page to link that is not in 'legal speak'.

[BarbarianMum]

It would come under 'Terms of Carriage' wouldn't it PatPig?

When you buy a ticket you are forming a contract with the bus company who provides you with transport to X in exchange for an amount of money plus some conditions regarding your behaviour (no eating etc).

If you break your side of the contract, by not obeying the Terms of Carriage (in this case by refusing to move your buggy) then they can and should ask you to leave the vehicle.

Frankly I have no time for this sort of selfishness. If you don't like the deal then get out and walk and be damned thankful you can.

[PatPig]

"I had a good look at the sign on the wheelchair space today. On stagecoach buses it states that buggies can use the space but must move if it is needed by a wheelchair user as it is the law ."

It isn't the law.

There is no 'wheelchair space' in law.

The law requires public transport operators to make their buses accessible to disabled people (who needn't be any wheelchairs). The law places an obligation on the operator. It doesn't place any obligation on the general public.

Consideration is another matter, but it's not law.

[YouTheCat]

I had a good look at the sign on the wheelchair space today. On stagecoach buses it states that buggies can use the space but must move if it is needed by a wheelchair user as it is the law .

It also has great big letters which say 'WHEELCHAIR SPACE'.

Right at the bottom it finishes with 'Thank you for considering others'.

[jacks365]

A woman had to fold her pram recently on a bus I was on and gave me her son to hold. He was fine but mine got a bit jealous. Only took about 30 seconds to fold then he was back with mum again.

[SilverApples]

'DD regarded strangers as new friends as soon as she could focus. They might have biscuits!'

Or shiny things to look at and grab.
Seriously, you are talking about a minute, not the entire journey.

[SilverApples]

' but the baby is likely to be very frightened at being handed to a stranger.'

Mine were socialised like puppies from birth.

[candycoatedwaterdrops]

I've held lots of babies that do not know me. I used to work at a nursery and was often handed babies when mums or dads were sorting something else out. The odd baby cried but it was only for a minute or two. It's not the end of the world for a baby to whinge for a minute or so.

[BarbarianMum]

More would be upset rather than "very frightened" . And many completely unbothered. But even being "very frightened" for the minute it takes to fold a buggy (with your mum/dad in full view) won't be very damaging, I think.

[edam]

I don't think most babies would be frightened especially if they see their mother is confident.

[Lambsie]

I avoid taking my son who uses a sn buggy on public transport unless I absolutely have to.
The last time I went on a bus we were first in the queue having chosen not to get on the previous bus because there were already buggies in the wheelchair space. Someone running from the other direction jumped on the bus in front of us and put his ordinary buggy in the space. When I asked him to move it/fold it he said I should turn my son's buggy sideways so it would fit in. This meant my son's buggy was sticking out and I had to hold his legs down every time someone walked past to stop him kicking them. He took his child out of the buggy and sat down with him in the accessible seats. The driver said nothing.

The last time I went on a train, there were buggies in the wheelchair space so I had to stand with my son in his buggy in the doorway. The doorway had several other people in it who had chosen to stand rather than sit down so it was quite crowded. My son shouted and kicked the whole journey with people staring down the carriage at him.

[DisgraceToTheYChromosome]

DD regarded strangers as new friends as soon as she could focus. They might have biscuits!

[bababababoom]

Completely agree that we should fold for a wheelchair user...but surprised people are happy for a stranger to hold their baby. Not that I think the stranger will do the baby any harm, but the baby is likely to be very frightened at being handed to a stranger.

[candycoatedwaterdrops]

For those who are saying disabled parents should not be asked to fold their buggy, well if you have an invisible disability, you may very well be asked. If it were me, I would say that I am disabled, so the only way I could fold a buggy is with assistance from other passengers or the driver. If no one else helped me, then I'd feel justified to stay. I can't imagine standing/sitting there and refusing to move without making any effort.

[BeyondTheLimitsOfAcceptability]

Proud, I've never had to fold on my own, even before I was ill. In my whole life, i've seen maybe two wheelchair users on the bus, both times there was still space for a pushchair on the opposite side. I've only had to fold my pushchair once when all spaces have been full, and that time I was with my DH so he did it.

We do have well laid out buses though.

[saintlyjimjams]

Gosh I would have thought that most grown adults could cope with holding a baby for a few minutes. It's hardly a special skill (and those who aren't keen don't offer ime!)

[twistyfeet]

Lililly. Wrap the baby in 10 feet of cotton wool. Or do what parents did 10 years ago before there were low floor buses and not assume the world was going to cave in around the precious baby, that asking for help was ok, that other people are perfectly capapble of holding a baby without hurling it to the floor/running off with it.
Most of us with children older than 10 faced this situation daily with several children under 3 and are alive to tell the tale and this is all getting a bit ridiculous. If the wheelchair space is empty then use it and thank disabled people who campaigned for them. If a wheelchair user needs it then ask for help and fold. It shouldnt have had to go to court because entitled precious parents couldnt manage that bit of common sense.
AND start a campaign for buses with buggy and wheelchair spaces. But given most parents are inconvenienced for a few short years, most of them wont bother is my guess.