Am I being unreasonable to confront this woman?

[justanuthermanicmumsday]

for those of you who don't know I wear a face veil usually a patterned scarf to avoid sticking out so much lol. point is I expect the odd comments maybe groans as I work past in my honour of course.

But two times now this senior lady I'd say in her 60s or more unprovoked loudly made comments at me. The first time she said" why are you wearing that" I was walking past with my twin buggy to supermarket, I thght she was incredibly rude. Had she said excuse me and proceeded to ask me a question in a normal tone I wouldn't have been miffed. Still I kept my cool said religious reasons as I walked away. I didn't want a conversation I don't see why I should explain when she was so rude.

yet today I see her again shouting across the road at me this time." No need to wear that take it off". Today I would say she looked aggressive or perhaps it was my eyes deceiving me. My toddler was with me she looked distressed said" mummy whys that lady shouting". I said "she's prob ill like your gran never mind her."

Should I confront her if this happens again? I'm not an aggressive person quite a walkover and not much confidence but I think it can't be ignored its like harassment.

I dread to think ill pass her again if I pop out she's always on the same route as me, yet why should I dread her.

Granted she doesn't like my dress neither does my brother, I'm not harming her in anyway. one sibling said I shouldn't confront her in case she goes to the police. But that's insane what reason would she have to go to the police i would simply tell her to get off my case. How would she like it if I told her to change her dress for something more acceptable to me. She's not the fashion police or the law.

Please remember this is not a conversation on whether you approve of my dress rather this woman's behaviour

don't be daft - you KNOW the rules of those countries.

BUT - contrast this to a friend of mine who's Turkish and lives in Germany. Has always holidayed in Turkey with family etc.

she was on the beach on an island in Turkey about a year ago in a bikini and got threats and abuse (comments, loud) from a family (mostly the males) where the women wore burkas/veil.

My friend is a Muslim - as to what extent I don't know - she practises it a bit but she's not fundamental. and for all these years she and her family have worn bikinis/swimsuits etc. If the culture of the land changes from freer thinking to gradually radical then that's not really fair, is it?

How do you think her father who was with her felt upon his daughter being called "whore" etc.

also what's really interesting - about 10 years ago I was in a French language class. there was a Tunisian girl there (born in UK etc) - she was saying "oh it's great - just like a Mediterranean country - you can be on beach in shorts, get ice cream etc".

I think it may have changed there now. but in those countries where it's swung to fundamental, isn't that terrible for the non-fundamentals who were happy wearing/behaving moreorless what they liked. and tolerating (that's too strong a word) themselves, the veil, headscarf wearers etc.

SubliminalMassaging, if you went into the street here in the UK and felt it was your right to just go taking random pictures of strangers walking past, I'm sure you'd be given plenty of dirty looks, get muttered at and told to put it away.
I for one, would object to anyone taking pictures of me or even my children without my consent.

What a weird comparison.

Exactly Miss - excellent example. Turkey is a has a secular state (for the time being at least) and although the majority are Muslim the women are very much a mixed bag - not all of them cover by any means. Many look just like any European/non-muslim women.

But many do cover, and are expected to - especially in the more rural or traditional areas and in the Asian part of the country rather than the European side, which is much smaller. (I think that is the case anyway - it has certainly been my experience but I am no expert.)

There is no 'rule' or 'law' as such to say that women must cover, but there will be, in certain areas and certain circumstances, a general disapproval of women dressing/behaving in a way that is not considered culturally acceptable.

I disagree actually about that actually - you might feel a bit annoyed if someone stuck a camera in your face and you didn't know them, but if you walked through a town centre and saw someone (who looked foreign) taking photos, you'd assume they wanted to capture a typical British street scene and think nothing of it. You would not be offended by the photography of people per se, even if you happened to feature in one of them. Many devout muslims would be.

I avent read the whole thread but am annoyedat people who think a woman should be made to remove the veil.

Are we really pro-choice when it comes to woman wearing what she wants? It seems that many tut at those men from the east telling their women to cover up, but have no qualms about themselves telling a woman what to wear or not wear. How many women in a niqab have ever harmed you? So, Women who want to wear a niqab should remove their niqab because you feel uncomfortable with the choice that she has made! But of course, oppression is only when those eastern men afflict it!

So anyway, let's forget the photography for a moment, is anyone going to tell me what advice or pearls of wisdom they would give me about avoiding the unfortunate scenario in the market? Or was I completely within my rights to walk through it half naked and was the onus completely on the local Muslims to roll their eyes good naturedly and mutter quietly and out of earshot about 'funny white people' and their funny way of going out half naked? Would I be being at all unreasonable or unrealistic to expect or demand that do you think?

AdventureTed, rest assured, I high doubt that not one of the veiled women around you that day thought you were weird for not covering your face. You were being paranoid to think so. I hope you feel better. :)

I am very very unsettled by women covering their faces.
I would be unsettled by anyone covering their face. I cannot have a conversation with someone face to face if I cannot see their facial expressions.

Subliminal, if you wish to go out semi-naked, and it is not illegal in the said country, then you have the right to do it. If the men harass you for it, then they are wrong in doing so.

SM, if you were taking pictures of a quaint British village scene that's another matter. But pointing the camera at individuals and taking pictures of them without asking is just downright rude. I'm sure if you do realise that if you were in a Egypt or Sudan as a tourist and took pictures of the streets and surroundings noone would object. We are talking of your devils advocate scenario of taking pictures of what you described as 'funny little covered up old ladies'

Bigbuttons, that is your problem.

Why should someone else remove something they have chosen to wear for your convenience?

Again, lets enforce a rule upon a minority group so we can feel comfortable. Who cares about their comfort eh!

Bigbuttons, why does it unsettle you so much? Do you feel they may harm you in some way? Or that they are strange beings because they wear an item of clothing that you don't?

Would it be acceptable for a Muslim woman who covered herself (but didn't necessarily wear a veil) to see you in say, shorts and revealing top that she felt unsettled by your choice of clothing?

Do you use the telephone? Internet? You are having a conversation with many people here now who you cannot see. Are you unsettled?

Please, live and let live. As long as she is not harming you or intimidating or hurting you, why do you feel unsettled?

It depends - of course it would be rude to take photos of a specific person without permission, but if they just happened to be in the photo as an accidental result of it being pointed at the wider scene in their general direction, then probably not, and I doubt most British non-muslim people would object to it, realistically.

Ok, so the photography thing was perhaps not the best example, or I just did not phrase it very well. But the clothes thing - yes of course it is my right to do it so long as it is not illegal. That doesn't get around the pesky issue of it deeply unnerving/upsetting/offending the majority of the locals though, does it?

It is perfectly ok for me to upset them? Should I be bewildered and amazed and indignant if they react badly to me? Or not? I need you to be more specific about not whether it is my right, legally speaking, but whether it is, or is not advisable, sensible, culturally insensitive, rude, stupid, attention-seeking, etc, etc.

Still don't understand why it matters what other countries do. In the UK it is rude and nasty to shout at and abuse people in the street who are just going about their business and breaking no laws. Why would you unless you are ignorant, a bully and a thug or have some medical issue.

And I'd imagine it's quite unusual to see veils and burkha in Turkey, people don't cover much. I agree there is a worry about the islamification of countries which have had freedom to dress as they please. I have friends in countries like Turkey and Malaysia who are worried.

Actually, for all that I am arguing against the full face veil and I am ambivalent about banning it in across the board. I do think though, that in certain circumstances a ban should be allowed:

People who work in the public sector, especially where they have face to face contact with the public, such as nursing or social work or teaching

Pupils and staff in schools

In a court of law, or when being questioned by the police

In airports, government buildings and other places of where security is paramount.

Private sector employers should have the right to insist that a woman does not use a full face cover in the working environment.

and I am sure there are other similar examples.

The rest of the time I don't really care what people do, so long as it's legal and doesn't do actual harm to anyone else. But you should have accept that if you live in Britain and choose to fully cover, many people will find it alienating and rude, and if their reaction to you is somewhat frosty or even confrontational, (then providing they don't overstep the mark into hate crime) that's just the price you pay for your choice.

Diet - I am telling you how I felt.

I do talk to people in veils. I stopped one person in a floor-skimming black burkha type thing from stepping in a whole load of dogmuck. She hadn't seen it and was about to go straight through it with her pushchair. It would have been a right mess.

Did I get a thankyou? No. Did I get a grateful smile? Who knows, I'm not telepathic.

I've never seen a full face veil in Turkey and I've been there several times. But we were talking about Turkey in the context of women being on the beach in swimwear, and it being culturally unacceptable for some Muslim Turks.

SM, I have no idea what you're trying to get at but you seem to be trying to prove a point? I'm assuming pure trying to insist that if you dressed in a bikini top and shorts and went to a market in Egypt, there would be some men who objected to your dress and in your words, would roll their eyes or even spit at you? And that, for that reason it's okay for you do the same to a women who you see in a veil in a British market??

Btw, spitting is a disgusting habit. Spitting at strangers is abusive. I highly doubt that a man in an Egyptian market would walk past you and spit on you. Stop making up dramatically hypothetical situations. I'm sure there are loads on female MNers who have holidayed in Egypt. How many of them have been spat on?

Subliminal - you sound as though you are excusing abusive behaviour. What if I just don't like what you are wearing, does that mean it's your fault if I choose to shout at you in the street?

Still don't understand why it matters what other countries do.

The reason it matters, is because it's important to know where the line is drawn between my right to do exactly as I please within the law, and my right to offend/alienate/unnerve the majority of the people around me, who may not share the same cultural habits and expectations as me, even if we share a nationality.

Don't think I have been spat on but have been hissed at, threatened and sexually assaulted loads of times in several mainly Islamic countries. It's not that unusual.

So everyone should just conform to the majority to stop thuggish idiots from shouting or abusing you in the street?