Am I being unreasonable to confront this woman?

[justanuthermanicmumsday]

for those of you who don't know I wear a face veil usually a patterned scarf to avoid sticking out so much lol. point is I expect the odd comments maybe groans as I work past in my honour of course.

But two times now this senior lady I'd say in her 60s or more unprovoked loudly made comments at me. The first time she said" why are you wearing that" I was walking past with my twin buggy to supermarket, I thght she was incredibly rude. Had she said excuse me and proceeded to ask me a question in a normal tone I wouldn't have been miffed. Still I kept my cool said religious reasons as I walked away. I didn't want a conversation I don't see why I should explain when she was so rude.

yet today I see her again shouting across the road at me this time." No need to wear that take it off". Today I would say she looked aggressive or perhaps it was my eyes deceiving me. My toddler was with me she looked distressed said" mummy whys that lady shouting". I said "she's prob ill like your gran never mind her."

Should I confront her if this happens again? I'm not an aggressive person quite a walkover and not much confidence but I think it can't be ignored its like harassment.

I dread to think ill pass her again if I pop out she's always on the same route as me, yet why should I dread her.

Granted she doesn't like my dress neither does my brother, I'm not harming her in anyway. one sibling said I shouldn't confront her in case she goes to the police. But that's insane what reason would she have to go to the police i would simply tell her to get off my case. How would she like it if I told her to change her dress for something more acceptable to me. She's not the fashion police or the law.

Please remember this is not a conversation on whether you approve of my dress rather this woman's behaviour

[nicename]

If people rub along that's really great, but when a barrier is thrown up 'is and them' then it can't help. Why live somewhere that you think is a stinky cesspit of sin? There are some places I wouldn't want to live in if my life depended on it, and if I was especially religious, I'd want to live in a 'christian country', not somewhere where I would struggle with the customs, laws and codes.

I was at school where there were catholic schools and protestant schools. 'The others' were a scary weirdy bunch, with odd beliefs and sinister activities. And these were people who looked, spoke and in the main, acted exactly alike. It was shot it really was.

[nicename]

It was shit, shit not shot.

[LessMissAbs]

Peppi I will not join you dancing naked on the fish stall, but support you with going for a run in shorts and a crop top, which I would wear in very hot weather here. What sort of reaction would I get in Muslim countries, if I asserted my right to do so? In fact, what would happen if I got shouted at if I ran through a very Muslim area of the UK? Would I be able to complain about religious discrimination, if I said daily exercise was essential to my interpretation of my religion?

The first female Muslim triathlete was permitted to race at London last weekend. Organisers went to the trouble of arranging a special changing tent for her so she could not be seen coming out of the water with the other women, and she had to cover up for the bike and the run.

Why are we permitting enforced sex discrimination in this country?

[AdventureTed]

nicename - my muslim friend from sixth form moved away too, come to think of it, as did my indian neighbour's extended family and my family. The area is just a bit of a dump (not because of veils or any particular set of people).

I grew up in a very strict religion, and
while my friend was reading her Barbara Cartland's, I was reading the People's Friend!

[laza222]

I think I would be tempted to remain calm and polite but ask her to leave you alone, explaining that it is none of her business what you wear and that you think it's sad that she isn't more ex excepting. Then if she gives you hassle again I'd be tempted to report it to the police as it does sound like harassment.

Either that or I'd ask her to join me for a coffee (if you feel it would be safe). I'm sure it would totally throw her and she might learn not to be such a narrow minded bigot when she realises that you are a nice, polite person who just choses to dress differently. I do understand though that that may not be very comfortable given how rude she's been and wouldn't do it if she's been aggressive!

[AdventureTed]

nicename - by the way, when I read "stinky cesspit of sin" I immediately thought "that's my stop!". I must get away from here.

People from here have been convicted of being in child grooming gangs, and I am embarassed to tell people where I come from.

[nicename]

I think it was my okd towns motto. Twinned with a-f*nowhere.

[MurderOfGoths]

"People have been found guilty of terrorist offences from this town. I'm not saying this is anything to do with veils."

Bit irrelevant to add to the thread then really? The town I grew up in also contributed a few jihadists/terrorists to the mix (some idiots with a rocket launcher are one of our many claims to fame). And fwiw I barely ever see anyone wearing veils around town, even with a large muslim population, veil wearers are definitely not the norm or majority there.

Just thought I'd throw that out there. Suspect our location rather than the religious mix had more to do with it due to being near an airport and several big transport links. You anywhere near a large airport by any chance?

[AdventureTed]

MurderofGoths - I mentioned it for the avoidance of doubt.

[nicename]

We've had some 'terrorists' (ie no-hopers who wanted to be 'big men') who were arrested near trendy old Notting Hill, where you don't see so many headscarves, let alone face coverings.

Ok so some numpty could shove on a full cover to go out and do dastardly deeds, but I really don't think its all that common - a man in drag just looks like a man in drag, even fully covered up.

In the ME was zones, women, of course, have been suicide bombers and been basically ignored until detonation as they were basically invisible. Not sure if any men have been dressed in robes though (they'd need to wear a veil though).

I don't like to see faces covered. Even masks. In the UK its not culturally acceptable, which is why I do wonder when a woman decides to go all the way. She knows its not culturally 'the norm'.

[MurderOfGoths]

A fair amount of people dress in a way that isn't "the norm", in fact the norm is much less common than you'd originally think.

[AdventureTed]

MurderofGoths - I used to think the same things you do, and be dismissive of other people's personal experiences from the town up the road.

Now we have the same situation here, and people who have not experienced it don't believe what is happening here.

It is perfectly fine for muslims to move away from here because they do not want to be forced to live a particular interpretation of islam by the locals, but I am supposed to pretend that nothing has changed.

[MurderOfGoths]

Are you? Where are all these people who are telling you what you are supposed to do/think? Is anyone forcing you to convert or act in a certain way?

[nicename]

But we've always had subcultures, with various 'badges' and codes.

Covering the face is very uncommon anywhere else beyond islam in the UK. The reasoning behind why the full veil is worn is dubious.

[MurderOfGoths]

I agree that the main reason given is dodgy as all hell, and I'm very uncomfortable with it, however I've also heard some women say they wear it because they dislike the objectification of women and like the freedom to not be judged by their physical appearance. Which is fair enough. Not what I'd do, but if it works for them.

[AdventureTed]

MurderofGoths - I estimate that the local school is at least 97 percent muslim, and the curriculum, food and holidays are all affected by this. At my kids' school, they have no choice but to eat halal meat or go veggie.

However, my post referred to some muslims leaving because they feel under pressure to conform to a particular interpretation of islam.

[SelectAUserName]

I'm sorry, I haven't read the whole thread so apologies for any repetition. I ploughed through the first couple of hundred posts but then it went a bit weird and silly in the middle so I skipped to the end.

My problem with the hijab / niqab is that, fundamentally, it stands for male oppression of the female body. That is the well from which it originally sprang. It is not demanded by any religious text and is not a requirement to fulfill one's subservience to one's God. It is insulting to the male half of the human species, implying they can't be trusted to look upon an uncovered woman without immediately being driven to lust.

I appreciate that some women choose freely to adopt this manner of dress. Unfortunately, I suspect that for every one who does, there is at least one for whom it is not a choice. I confess that while I don't actively seek a ban in this country because I value freedom of expression, and I don't excuse outright personal abuse based on an individual's appearance, I do privately think less of those women who choose to go out fully veiled, because they are willingly colluding with a cultural behaviour which is based upon, and continues to represent in many quarters, enforced oppression of women.

[MurderOfGoths]

My school was predominantly sikh/muslim, think we worked it out to about 80% in my final year, I never found it impacted on me. Meant I was more aware of when the muslim/sikh festivals were than friends in schools with a different balance, but other than that I didn't have to behave any differently.

[BlingBang]

Adventureted - I'd be interested to see where you live. I agree it must be hard to see where you live change til it becomes quite alien to you. Most of us here probably haven't really experienced that.

I have no problem with the hijab and can understand why some visitors here continue to cover up if they do that at home. I'd be interested to speak to British Muslims who choose to do it though.

[calopene]

SELECT .....I think you have it there. And OP you are choosing and extreme form of dress to express your cultural/religious identity so there probably will bé some 'extreme' reactions - why not take someone with you next time you are likely to encounter this lady and politely and constructively explain why you are doing this and also perhaps listen to her thoughts and feelings on the subject. What do you think your 3 year old makes of you feeling the need to bé masked in public ? Is she a girl ? I would bé more worried about that really than an old biddy shouting at me.

[AdventureTed]

BlingBang - I want to keep my details personal. In fact, I think everyone posting on mumsnet should read through the search history for their nicknames, to check how much real life info they are giving out.

I am thinking it would be best for my family if we just moved.

[Theodorakiss]

Lots of Jewish women wear wigs so they can hide their hair. Orthodox nuns cover their hair. This thread especially asked for an opinion about an old gasbag, not the OP's choice and some of the posts (one poster in particular) is grossly offensive.

[SubliminalMassaging]

\it's not about headscarves though Theodora, it's about full face covering. It's extremely unnerving for people who are not familiar with it.

[AdventureTed]

Theodorakiss - if you tell us what the offending posts say, maybe we can discuss them and apologise where necessary. That is what open debate is about - listening and responding to each other.

[nicename]

But a jewish woman in a wig looks like a woman with hair (depending on the wig oif course). Nuns don't generally cover the full hair up (fewer these days wear scarves) and I suppose you could say that their male counterparts are just as sartorially dictated as they are (if not more).

To cover the face is to conceal your identity. We recognise each other by our faces generally (unless in the phone). We read expressions in the face, lip-read if deaf, or listen closely to the voice if hard of hearing (not sure if the voice is all that muffled under a veil).

A woman of non-Arab extraction who chooses to wear a veil is deciding to copy a culture, not following religious teaching. To prove a point, please someone, be closer to god?

It's like wearing a costume. I can dress like an Afghani woman but it won't make me a muslim. If I were to marry a pakistani man, there's no way I'd wear a red gown with all the sparkles (beautiful as it is). I'd look an arse.