To not get why people hate Dubai so much?

[Cutitup]

What is there to hate?

I think it's a great place to have a holiday. Great restaurants, great service, fab shopping and spa treatments.

I do understand the problems of domestic and construction staff being exploited but this is not a problem unique to Dubai. I just don't get the vitriol, the 'it has no culture' etc.. I say get out of the bitter farm and play with the hay!

Theodorakiss is that really what you think?

I get that you think I'm talking silly nonsense about maids, but do you really think the entire subject of migrant workers in Dubai is 'hilarious'? Or perhaps you just mean that non expats who disagree with slave labour are hilarious?

Even if I accept that all migrant workers who work for Westerners are treated with respect and decency, are well paid and happy to be earning good money and sending their money home, that still doesn't account for the majority of migrant workers in Dubai (or Qatar). And I don't believe that every single Westerner in the middle east treats domestic staff impeccably. In fact I know they don't.

It still doesn't account for the maids who are beaten and or sexually harrassed by Emirati families. Or the ones who don't get given meals and have to survive on leftovers from their employers plates. Or the ones who sleep on the kitchen floor and don't get time off. Or the ones who don't get paid properly or aren't allowed to leave the house alone. Or the labourers who die of heart attacks in the miday sun in Qatar working on the world cup infrastructure. Or the bonded Indian workers in Dubai building 5 star hotels who work for 2 years before they are able to send money home. It still doesn't account for the holding of passports or the insanitary labour camps. It still doesn't change the fact that some of the richest countries in the world import cheap bonded labour from some of the poorest and employ them under a sponsorship system which human rights groups say is akin to slavery. It doesn't account for the lack of freedom of movement of maids and labourers and it doesn't account for the fact that all of this represents the values of the monarchy's regime - the workers have no legal recourse. And that it is a choice to treat people this way when they could afford not to.

Meanwhile, Emiratis, expats and tourists are all living it up and enjoying the fruits of slave labour. Some of them actually 'love it!'.

The cynicism is quite something.

I think that the googling of a subject and a copy of the Guardian does not make people qualified to make such sweeping judgements about a place they know nothing about.

The arrogant, pathetic pontificating of some of these posters serves no useful purpose than to make them feel clever and useful and they clearly have issues in their own sad little Boden clad (made by slaves by the way) lives.

I only read the first paragraph of the above so can't comment on the further attempt to educate my silly little expat brain.

Go live life, travel, try a different paper, join a charity that changes lives. Just go outside, walk around, learn to like life, so sad that such venom and hatred is wasted on a place that, like you never wanting to visit, we would rather cut off our feet and eat them than live your sad little angry bitter lives in provincial (perfect non exploiters of little foreign people) Britain.

This thread is silly and funny and should be satirised and televised. Such fun.

Right.

Um, I don't live in Britain and have never bought anything from Boden, I have travelled quite a lot, volunteer for a charity that changes lives and like walking.

Will you answer my post without all the insults now?

Do you disagree with the Guardian investigative journalists findings about the conditions of the workers building the world cup infrastructure? Or do you just have a problem with it being journalists from the Guardian who publicised what is going on? If it had been a different newspaper would that change things for you?

rt.com/news/qatar-slavery-migrant-workers-405/ Do you think the following comments are fun?

Qatar, along with other Gulf nations, uses the so-called “kafala” system, under which each foreign worker hired to in the country needs a “sponsor,” usually their employer. Permission from the sponsor is needed to enter or leave country, or to change jobs. The company is also responsible for issuing IDs, without which workers are reduced to the status of foreign aliens with no legal protection.

The system in practice leaves the migrant workers at the mercy of their employers, who can refuse to pay wages, withhold documents and thus leave workers stranded, force them to work long hours in hazardous conditions and exploit and abuse them in other ways.

“The evidence uncovered by the Guardian is clear proof of the use of systematic forced labor in Qatar," said Aidan McQuade, director of Anti-Slavery International. "In fact, these working conditions and the astonishing number of deaths of vulnerable workers go beyond forced labor to the slavery of old where human beings were treated as objects. There is no longer a risk that the World Cup might be built on forced labor. It is already happening.”

Attacking me and calling me all sorts of things changes none of this. Or perhaps you just won't read it because Aidan McQuade has cited the Guardian...

Yes Beachcomber, but I had some sympathy for the arguments several pages back before it all descended into farce, where seated, sated sermonisers have been 'researching' and congratulating, condemning and condescending, only in effect to argue that, well, noone should leave The Good' World, and go to The Bad Places, lest they face the wrath of Mumsnet and The Eyebrow.

We have got "I just could not Do It"... Er I got that. Don't go then.

Okay - it is pretty clear then.

The middle class racist mummies must STFU about slavery because otherwise they will be called middle class racist mummies (and all sorts of other charming things).

Not the most convincing argument I have ever encountered.

And actually when I posted the hmm it was in response to a personal attack on me - but you carry on taking the piss out of me and misrepresenting what I posted.

So what should we do then Beachcomber?

Ok we could Go, but with the Little Englander approach. We can politely knock on Sheikh Mohammed's door and say. " I say, old chap, but this really Will Not Do. Shall I tell you we Things Are Done back in Blighty? Got it? Ah good, so you'll change all that nonsense then? Good... Jolly Good Show. Now, tell me, how is the forn on the new stallion?"

Or perhaps a bit of Direct Action. Get a march together, stand outside Sheikh Mohammed's office, with the chant
"Sheikhy! Sheikhy! Sheikhy! Out! Out Out!!
They must surely listen to us and change their pesky Arab ways

Or perhaps the Liberal approach....
Where you talk and discuss and never do anything. But eventually turn against any colleagues who is given a chance to actually do something other than talk but has to accept that he can't change everything.

Or your favoured option - Don't go, and point the finger and say " I just could not do it"

I always wonder if Expats would flock to the Middle East if the standard of life was not better (for them)

Have you ever heard of anyone retired living in the UAE?

My bet is no. The only reason people put up with that place and all its flaws is for the money.

Unfortunately even if people didnt like living there theyre unable to say because they could be arrested for painting a negative picture of the UAE.

I've always wondered, sites like that dubai expat woman, are people free to say what they want and be critical? I used to post on another expat forum in Asia and it folk just said it how they saw it.

starwarslegoboy despite the unpleasant tone of your post I am going to answer you sincerely with some initial thoughts.

On an international level - I think the World Cup should not happen in Qatar if the preparations cannot meet with international standards for human rights. I think it should be announced loudly and clearly why and then the following should be applied.

International pressure should be applied on countries still operating the kafala system to stop doing so (just as pressure was applied to South Africa WRT apartheid). The same goes for these countries to formalize the rights of domestic workers. The same goes for imposing a thermal limit.

Countries who disagree with the kafala system should provide public information for potential visitors to countries operating the system so that citizens can make an informed choice as to whether they wish to contribute to the economies of those countries - be it as tourists or as expats.

Aid is also clearly required in the home countries of migrant workers as is a comprehensive information campaign about the kafala system, bonded labour, etc.

On an individual level people could support anti slavery organisations and those which campaign for the well being and rights of migrant workers. Support should also be given to organisations in the home countries of migrant workers.

Of course some of these will be difficult, because oil.

Yes because the London Olympics were built by very highly paid British people.
Clear the shit off your own doorstep before Googling the doorsteps of others.

The middle class mummies can say what they like, doesn't mean the vast majority of it isn't drivel.

I always wonder if Expats would flock to the Middle East if the standard of life was not better (for them)

Of course not - why on earth would they? What an absurd thing to say. Since when did anyone up sticks and go halfway around the world in search of a crapper lifestyle and less money?

Have you ever heard of anyone retired living in the UAE? My bet is no.

If you mean British people, it happens, but rarely. I don't believe we can ever be granted passports, and I am sure we rarely wish to apply for them anyway - why would we, when we already hold the trump card of all passports? But if you are of independent financial means after retirement it is possible to stay here pretty much indefinitely so long as you jump through certain hoops, and a few people do choose to do that.

The only reason people put up with that place and all its flaws is for the money.

Well, er....yes. And? Show me someone who isn't remotely motivated by acquiring more money and the security it affords them, and I'll show you a trust funder. Or someone with a mental illness.

Besides, you might say the same of British people living in Britain and working in low level, poorly paid jobs. They might moan like hell about their financial situation, lack of prospects etc., but they stay because they can't do any better (or even half as well) with their limited skill set anywhere else in the world. I'm sure there are plenty of UK poorly educated, poorly qualified, poorly experienced armchair detractors who'd be here (or almost anywhere) like a shot, if only they could earn the money to make it more than worth their while. It's easy to object to/refuse in principle something you'll never be offered in practice.

People who come from places with no money and no prospects will usually take every opportunity to leave. Unless of course they are propped up by a generous benefits system which removes the need and the motivation to do anything so drastic, which is why the construction labourers dying are Nepali and not British. Lucky old us, eh?

Unfortunately even if people didnt like living there theyre unable to say because they could be arrested for painting a negative picture of the UAE.

Well that is a silly statement and not even worthy of a response. Feel free to expand on what you mean by that, exactly, and then I'll get back to you.

My opinions are not based on what I have read on google

I have lived in a few countries, one side of my family are from a country where a large number of migrant workers come from, I have family that have worked in Dubai, I have been there myself, my father was a migrant worker, I have lived in an Arab country and my ex is a Muslim

So I do understand Arab and Asian culture have been and am part of it, I have turned down living in Singapore as expat lifestyle does not appeal, yet I have the same views as many on here who apparently have little or no understanding

Plus I am not part of any class as my lifestyle and background is mixed and have no boden clothing in my wardrobe

Yet I still fundamentally disagree with buying people as do so many on here and found Dubai to be a horrible place of people who have so much treating those that have so little appallingly (apart from few on here) any that is what I strongly object to

And yes I do help one because I am not part of keeping this system going and secondly I help my family so no I do not just preach from my armchair

'Well, er....yes. And? Show me someone who isn't remotely motivated by acquiring more money and the security it affords them, and I'll show you a trust funder. Or someone with a mental illness.'

So people who arent motivated by money are mentally ill? Yuck. Not compassion or preferring time with family or anything else. No, you think they are mentally ill.
I think that says more about your outlook really.

FellatioNelson,

Your comment really is revolting it clearly shows you for what you are.

Oh my comment is revolting?! Oh the irony! What am I, exactly? You tell me. I'm all ears. What are we supposed to do? Sit here and be flogged and flailed and sneered at and insulted, have huge and offensive generalisations made about us and just suck it up?

Would you like to go back over this thread and see how many revolting comments have been levelled at British expats like me? Go on - we'll do a tally at the end. We'll see which side of the divide has been more offensive.

FFS. This is why I should never even bother answering these threads.

and when did you last turn down a pay rise twisty?

You know exactly what I'm driving at. You are choosing to pretend you don't.

This has all got quite ridiculous. There have been a few posters on this thread who have went out of their way to insult and push the debate in a certain direction which ends up shutting down any form of reasoned debate. They have to show that they are more intelligent, better informed, more moral and CARE more than anyone else. They have to spread the light and lead or (bash over the head) anyone who doesn't 100% agree with them. it doesn't matter that most of the posters on here who have been expats and employed maids have actually agreed with the general issues raised and want to see conditions improved, this is just not enough, they have to be punished and have their words twisted and be shown the way by those who know better. I'm sure they will be a great loss to the diplomatic community with their talent for actually turning people off, and alienating them (and these are people who basically agree with their concerns) and doing sod all to actually get their point across and encourage people to talk rationally about it. They are actually a hindrance to winning hearts and minds and - they just piss people off and make them turn off (or end up becoming entrenched and start saying silly things just to annoy them).

And posters like Freud and Poppy, no not including you here.

And for the sake of exact accuracy, (as because some people will choose to take flippant remarks far too literally) the only people who are not remotely motivated to want to acquire any money for themselves are

a) people who already have more of it than they can spend, with no end in sight. (see my comment about trust funders)

b) people who are so severely mentally ill that thy are no longer able to prioritise their own survival or protection.

c) people who are so deeply spiritual and idealistic that they actually reject money. Like Buddhist monks for example. But they still need food and shelter, and if someone didn't provide it for them as an act of charity I'm sure they'd change their minds somewhat about the money thing.

The rest of us? We'd all like a bit more of it. Every single one of us.

That's what I meant.

Some of us would refuse a bit more money if it comes at the cost of living in extreme heat, subject to misogynist laws, and served by slaves.

That is the answer to OP, in a nut shell.

FellatioNelson I don't think that is fair.

I have said that a relative of my DH is an expat (although I was mocked for it), I have said that I do not have an issue with expats in general and nor do I have an issue with employing domestic staff. I suppose I am actually an expat myself as I do not live in my country of birth and nationality.

I have had all sorts of unpleasant things said about me on this thread, I have been mocked, sneered at and insulted. I have been sworn at. I have had all sorts of (frankly bizarre) assumptions made about me and accusations thrown at me. I have been berated for not doing anything to help and then mocked as being 'saintly' when I said what I do do to help. I have been told to get out of Britain and travel when I don't even live there. It has been assumed that I am racist (or at least an Arab basher which would probably make certain members of my DH's family smile). I have been mocked for responding to a personal attack with an emoticon and told that I have issues with my sad little life. I have been called all manner of inventive things - it has been quite eye opening!

Too bad.

I'm not terribly bothered and would have reported posts if I was. I'm only saying this to point out that I don't think it is entirely honest to paint a picture of the poor abused expats being attacked by others on this thread.

I have clearly said more than once, that my issue is with those (countries and people) who use the kafala system to employ cheap labour and benefit from doing so. That does not apply to all expats or all expats who employ a domestic worker by any means.

If you choose to ignore that in order to pretend that all expats in general have been attacked simply for being expats then too bad. My issue is with a system which is intrinsically abusive of people's human rights and with those who exploit and benefit from that system.

So quit with the strawman already.

Yes cote - some of us would. I never said otherwise.

It's funny to see how this thread has developed from expats trying to explain that "things are bad elsewhere" and that "there may be systematic contraventions of international labour laws, but that doesn't really matter you see, because we, personally, are nice to our maids" to an out and out assault on Filipina maids and how they are a 'nightmare' and all out to get you, and anyway, you're not trying to help anyone because you just want a clean house, and that's your right. Anyway, they're lucky to have work at all!

True colours.