To not get why people hate Dubai so much?

[Cutitup]

What is there to hate?

I think it's a great place to have a holiday. Great restaurants, great service, fab shopping and spa treatments.

I do understand the problems of domestic and construction staff being exploited but this is not a problem unique to Dubai. I just don't get the vitriol, the 'it has no culture' etc.. I say get out of the bitter farm and play with the hay!

Yes, the UAE should do better. So should many other counties. Austrailia is no longer allowing in asylum seekers arriving by boat - I think that's a bloody scandal, but we are still going there in droves, caring not a jot.

I do think that if you are going to take the high ground, then that's it's hypocrytical to have cheap clothing argument is perfectly valid. I think you have to be pretty bullet proof in your peronal choices when you make such judgements

However, I personally think a lot of it is thinly clothed dislike for the sometimes ostentatiousness of Dubai. Which is fair enough, each to their own.

Oh, and my parents visited Thailand in 1980. Pattaya was one of the places they went. I think sex tourism may have been in its infancy. Or possibly adolescence. That's not what they went for and they didn't see it. But perhaps they weren't looking hard enough.

Anyway, my mum had terrible jet lag and walked in the gardens of the hotel at 5am. She was charmed to see all the workers tying paper blossoms onto the trees and had lovely chats with them about how great their lives were.

A day or so later when she came to she realised that the hotel management had all those people beavering away before most guests awoke because they wanted to create the impression of a paradise which perhaps didn't exist.

Similarly she wondered whether their working lives were idyllic, or whether they were making the best of a bad job.

She still talks about Thailand and the Thais she met with affection. But she does realise that the picture she got on holiday possibly wasn't the full one.

But if you are going to take the moral stance does it matter if the chamber maids are immigrant workers or local. The stark differences in these luxurious hotels and their own lifestyles are huge. While you lie on your luxurious rose petal strewn bed with the sheets made up of elaborate fans shapes or whatever, have you thought to the reality for the woman or man creating this vision of bling and loveliness behind the scenes? Are you sure they are being treated fairly and not mistreated - at least immigrant workers have the choice to move to a country (not a great choice admittedly).

I've lived in countries with immigrant workers trying to work themselves out of severe poverty. Yes things should be highlighted and challenged but generally it is an on going process.

i do not stay in 5 star hotels i have done but i prefer smaller hotels as i like to get out

i know that chambermaids are not receiving high wages and rely on tips and some may even offer other services but as i have said before this is not what thailand/sri lanka/india and other countries where many of the people are poor is built on an industry and society with such with such a divide

and not all accommodation is 5 star far from it

But if you are going to take the moral stance does it matter if the chamber maids are immigrant workers or local

It's similar to Britain where most of us don't have transferable skills in that most of us speak English only.

If you have other skills, particularly language, and are desperate enough or without ties, you can work abroad.

Without a specific skill though, it's never really going to be that great.

Immigrant workers from dire circumstances destroy the employment rights of established workers.

I don't blame them, but it happens. It's hideously short-sighted amongst the workers, but it's understandable.

It's been one of the arguments for excluding women from various trades and industries in the uk.

However, as a consumer, without being too po-faced, I think we should try to withstand it and call for better standards.

Because, after all, most of us get shafted, despite all those fab spa treatments done by filipinas.

Has OP flown off to have her toenails waxed btw?

I think you make a very good point limited.

However, I personally think a lot of it is thinly clothed dislike for the sometimes ostentatiousness of Dubai. Which is fair enough, each to their own

I spend a total of six weeks in Ibiza. How much more ostentatious do you want it to be?

Not really understanding that last post Limited but interested in your statement,...

"Immigrant workers from dire circumstances destroy the employment rights of established workers"

Actually when the Rand took a pasting in the early noughties, there was huge influx of well educated white South Africans into Dubai, perfectly willing and more than able to work for far less than the Brits, Americans and Europeans... Lead balloon was an understatment. Likewise, many Indians, particulary from the Bangalore area have excellent in IT skills - they have invested hugely in it and are willling to work for less than old Whitey. Twas definately changing things when I was there..

I loathe those 5 star spa resort hotel type things - have stayed in a couple - actively avoid them by choice
I like local hotels run by local people who can tell me where the most amusing downtown restaurant is
otherwise you are visiting a bubble not a country

out of interest, what "shopping" does one do in Dubai that cannot be done in the UK?

It has the posh designer shops, all of which you can get in the UK but often in one mall, and you don't get the stuck up arsedom that you get from the staff here. And it would be cheaper. Not a big fan of shopping personally, but whatever floats your boat. It was certainly not a hobby of mine while I lived there. nor, incidentally, was the spa thing, although I did do it occasioinally, as I do here. Nice for a girlie day. I wouldn't have considered it something to do on holiday either tbh.

I think the sun and the restaurants are the main attractions tbh. But I do think it's an interestig place to visit... all our visitors loved it. Even if they had to put up with DH giving them a history of the region since year dot!

I like 5 star luxury hotels and small run local hotels. The bigger resorts are great for kids, on my own I'd be happy in a smaller hotel. Also like caravan parks and youth hostels - doesn't have to always be one or the other.

The bigger resorts are great for kids
I've never, ever understood that bit.
Why do people go on holiday with their kids and then ship them off to a kids club the whole time.
Give me a campsite and a deserted beach any day.

posh designer shops, all of which you can get in the UK but often in one mall
Ah, so buying really overpriced stuff that nobody needs with money most people do not actually have.

Dubai just looks like a shit destination. Really bloody hot and shopping in large malls the main source of recreation. Boring hotels.

Who said I shipped em off to kids clubs all day? Yes they spend some time in kids clubs but they enjoy it and it gets them out the sun for part of the day. amp site on a deserted beach can be lovely but maybe not all the time, I like some luxury now and then. Maybe your kids would like a kids club now and then and a big luxury resort.

And why the need to be so superior, snidey and critical?

Well, as I said, shopping not really my bag, I have my moments, and each to their own. Would be dull if we were all the same as my mum would say. If somone wants to buy flash stuff, whether they can afford it or they get into debt, well that's not my concern. Bizarre argument to use tbh, there are plenty of places to spend too much money on stuff. And just because something is not to your taste, it's not necesarily shit. Why trash other people's choices, isn't it better that we have them.

But Dubai is a fun place to be, if you like going out, the beach, eating out, offroading, desert driving, watersports, horseriding and lots more. If you want a deserted beach might I suggest Harris. I'm ok with both.

I don't think there's any need to veil dislike of ostentatiousness. If you dislike it, then you dislike it. No doubt bear will be along to tell me that I am a hypocrite for disliking ostentatiousness because I once wore a pair of earrings....

Bear - you're missing the point re. the net immigration stats. Yes the population of the UAE is x and there will be y more poor people elsewhere - but we are talking about the extent to which the entire construction industry and service industry is propped up on exploiting migrant labour. So the proportions do matter. It's incomparable to all but a very few handful of countries - Singapore included - but Singapore does not market itself as a mass luxury tourism destination.

I would say I don't like ostentatiousness, but depends what you class as ostentatiousness I suppose. am not averse to a bit of luxury but can slum it too. All the rich variety of life and all that jazz.

Bling posted " But if you are going to take the moral stance does it matter if the chamber maids are immigrant workers or local [...] Are you sure they are being treated fairly and not mistreated - at least immigrant workers have the choice to move to a country (not a great choice admittedly)"

I think it does matter. In many countries around the world, and in many poor countries, service industry staff are not going to be paid well by EU standards. But they are jobs which offer a reasonable level of stability, and are by no means 'bottom tier' jobs in those countries. Beyond that I would query the effect of being exiled, for many, many years, from your own family and community. As well the material hardship many migrant workers injure, there are also serious mental health outcomes.

I'd also question whether or not many migrant workers have a 'choice' at all. Take a look at this short UN reports which indicates grave concerns about the role of human trafficking in bringing workers to the ME.

www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=44604#.UkB76mTF3k0

Some people have indicated that there are particular local circumstances (ie. the economy, age of the country) that make this kind of mass exploitation ok. In that case I'd suggest that you read a bit about the Kafala system, as I have just done.

I don't know what the OP intended to begin when she started this thread, but it's certainly prompted me to read more about the issues surrounding migrant labour in Dubai. I don't like what I've read.

In Cuba jobs in the tourist industry are highly sought after due to the access to tips = US dollars.

I'm not sure if you are referring to me, but certainly do not condone 'mass exploitation'. I would say that the biggest issue of mass exploitation, as you put it, is the prostitution, which is actually quite touristy.

However, this is not unique to Dubai or even the Middle East. The iconic photograph of the men building the Rockerfella Centre in New York was hardly compliant with modern health and safety rules, and the ships to the Free World were not known for their comfort, nor were the employers benevolent charities. Times have certainly changed for some but not all.

There are many many millionaires in India but it does not seem to be subject to the vitriol that the Arab nations get, or at least, the RICH Arab nations.

DH was staying in a hotel in Delhi and there was a dead guy jut outside the hotel. When DH raised his concern, the receptionist said, I'm sorry sir, we did not mean to offend.' He tried to explain that he was concerned, to much bemusement. They basically did not give a fuck and were scathing of DH's concern. It is a tough world. Now many Indians travel to Dubai and other places for the chance of work and to send money back to their families.

Pressure should certainly be put on authorities to improve conditions where they are poor but lets not kid ourselves that things are not grim for people from other coutries in other places. Actually India's caste system contributes massively to the ongoing poverty there with very little means to escape it. But we give them large amounts of aid and they have the nuke. And btw, the building sites in Delhi are unbelievable, with women in skirts climbing up bamboo ladders, no hard hards - shocking. But India is ok and hippy and the rich Arabs get all the shit.

No one is saying it is OK. But Dubai is RICH and can afford to treat its workers properly/have effective legislation in place to protect their rights. It CHOOSES not to.

Sorry to disappoint you heads but your attempt at being ostentatious by wearing earrings has been completely top trumped by the poster who thought spending 6 weeks in Ibiza was ostentatious! I don't think I could do that if you paid me!

But why does Dubai get all the shit? India has the means to do so too as do many other places. If they can afford the Nuke then they can do more for its own people in utter dire poverty. But who with power actually chooses to? It is more that it evolves as does the society or is forced upon them. Do you really think they would sit down in a committee style and bang out H&S legislation before they put a brick in the ground? It doesn't work like that. That is sad, but true. I'm not defending Dubai in this respect as such but it does irk me that it gets the kicking when others are just as culpable. It has taken years and lots of Union power to get the laws in this country and we are supposedly 'First World'. And there are many who would strip a lot of them out here too, but that's another story.

Fur coat and nae knickers it might be at times but I don't think she needs all the blame. Oh the temptation to take that metaphor further.....