to think if you can't control a primary school class without constantly bellowing you are not cut out to be a teacher?

[blobfish]

I gave up volunteering at DD's school because I was fed up of the teachers constantly shouting at the generally well-behaved kids. Not all the teachers, there were a couple of good ones who knew how to engage children and keep the classroom calm.

DD has been back at school a couple of weeks and is already worn down by the shouty teacher she's been lumbered with.

We're not a "delicate" family so she's not being a wimp, just fed up of trying her hardest but having to listen to her teacher bellow at the kids because she clearly has poor behaviour management skills.

AIBU to think shouty teachers should find another career?

Blissx - you're paranoid, there is no "vile vendetta" against teachers on this thread.

LostMarbs - the problem is that whilst I have the time and skills to home ed my DD (and definitely will do in Year 6 to avoid SATs), many parents can't give this option to their kids and it's unfair that these children have to put up with teachers who can't control a class without constant shouting.

Not much change in last few years? Ha ha ha! I took 3 years out when DD was born. Returned last year. It feels like I have walked into a new world. Something is going very wrong in an awful lot of family settings.

If I was genuinely concerned about my child having shit teacher, so shit in fact that I had given up volunteering in same school, I would be getting the facts, talking to the teacher, head teacher, getting it addressed.

I wouldn't be bitching on the Internet about it.

And maybe you have done this already and I'm really sorry if I'm getting the wrong end of the stick.

And just to add I am a teacher but I don't shout as I work in a school with a "no shouting" policy!

So that is your discussion; "you're paranoid"?

YANBU, I'm a Primary Deputy and I see it that if a teacher has got to a point of shouting constantly then their basic boundaries, systems etc have all fallen to pieces or not been established effectively.
I did some work with teacher training for Teach First and the absolute basics of behaviour management was preventing the behaviour from happening in the first place.
Things like an activity for the minute the children step in the classroom to 'hook' them in and stop opportunity to mess about, a clear classroom routine, asking for silence then waiting and looking at those who aren't listening rather than shouting over pupils, short and simple rules with consistent consequences, an equal amount of praise as punishment, giving the easily distracted child the sheets to hand out to keep them occupied, if a child is speaking when you are explaining a task simply walk to their desk and put your hand on their desk then continue speaking (sometimes silence is far more powerful than shouting). There are lots of little 'tricks'.

As PP said if a teacher is effective then the one time something truely awful has happened and a teacher has to raise their voice, it is far more powerful and effective because it is a shock and really means trouble.

see, Marbles, your school shows that shouting isn't necessary

A teacher I have been working with has a great way of stopping noise in the classroom. She has a stopwatch, and uses it to time the amount of seconds it takes for the whole class to be silent. All those seconds add up and the time is taken of the golden time session they usually have on a Friday afternoon (30 minute session).

The stopwatch is quite large and colourful and sits on the teacher's desk.

Now, in the second week of her using it, I see that when she picks up the stopwatch, it is spotted by some pupils who then nudge their tablemates and whisper 'shhh' and, within a few seconds, the classroom is silent and all are staring intently at the teacher/stopwatch.

She states how many seconds have been lost, and the cumulative amount, and encourages pupils to be aware of their noise level when in the classroom.

This Friday the number of minutes taken off golden time was less than 2.

If I was a teacher, my default setting would be 'screechy angry banshee'

Things like an activity for the minute the children step in the classroom to 'hook' them in and stop opportunity to mess about, a clear classroom routine, asking for silence then waiting and looking at those who aren't listening rather than shouting over pupils, short and simple rules with consistent consequences, an equal amount of praise as punishment, giving the easily distracted child the sheets to hand out to keep them occupied, if a child is speaking when you are explaining a task simply walk to their desk and put your hand on their desk then continue speaking (sometimes silence is far more powerful than shouting). There are lots of little 'tricks'.

I completely agree with you.

However, and I am not saying this applies to the OP, I have worked in a school, not now thankfully, where such 'tricks' would be meaningless. As a 22 year old NQT, I had lovingly decorated my classroom with posters, plants and pictures. My very first lesson, with a hook activity, worksheets on desks, rules up on the board clearly and lots of praise as the children walked in, was ruined in seconds when two boys walked in, made a paper plane from their worksheets, then threw my plants out of the window when I wrote their names on the board.

I lasted a year in that school. Kids would openly swear and mock you, walk out of lessons, insult one another and you, steal pens and books, trash classrooms and refuse to do really basic stuff like remove coats. It wasn't my bad teaching either - I did very well as soon as I left that school and I have now had several promotions and work as an assistant headteacher where, fairly ironically, one of my roles is to mentor NQTs!

If I had an NQT who was shouting I would want to support them and help them follow the school system, but the point is we have a system and we keep to it. I don't think some parents and some teachers for that matter appreciate just how "bad" some bad behaviour can be - it isn't just chatting over a teacher, not doing homework or turning up late to a lesson. It can be nasty, sustained and arrogant and it can be physically frightening too.

I just dislike the assumption that a poorly behaved class means a rubbish teacher - it doesn't.

My DCs (2) drive me up the Wall somedays. I therefore have Eternal respect for teachers to have to manage 28more six hours a Day

School is a new concept to me & DH as our DD just started nursery and so far we haven't come across shouting teachers. My DDs teacher told me they use time out or distraction strategies. So I think YANBU OP. There are other ways....

Interestingly dd1 will go mad at me for shouting if I say something she doesn't want to hear...as does my mother...you can be whispering and they both get really stressed and say I'm shouting..no I'm not..you are not just getting your own way.

I used to begin to whisper things like,"The first 5 people to open their books will get a gold star," or "if you want a Smartie put your hand up."
In Secondary I used to write on the board,"Anyone who is still talking when I put the chalk down will stay behind for 10 minutes."
I never ever raised my voice in 30 years.When it comes to a shout-down 30 kids beat one teacher every time.If you drop your voice and make sure it is something they need/want to hear then they will listenOnce they become accustomed to that there will be no more trouble.
Tell a GCSE group in a normal voice that you are giving out the title for a piece of coursework.Drop your voice so it is audible at the back but a little quieter than the original statement.Half the class,"Didn't hear Miss!" Ask them to stay behind and you will give the title again after the lesson.
Obviously there may be children with some hearing difficulty but you will know who they are and act appropriately.There need never be control problems for a teacher who loves the job,has pupils not friends and can smile and laugh with her class as well as being firm.

autumnflakes yes good point, you are right- in some schools and with some children however magnificent you are, you aren't going to be able to tame them!
I was there with a Teach First teacher in her first week last year, I was in the classroom supporting as her mentor, in first lesson a chair was thrown, the TA was kicked and one of her sheets was scrunched into a paper ball. All were not her fault, her lesson in all honesty was almost flawlessly planned and delivered and she had covered everything. Those things all could not have been prevented, whoever was teaching them.
Still, no shouting occurred. The chair thrower and the kicker were removed to the inclusion room, sheet scruncher stayed in for break to redo his sheet, and the lesson continued relatively smoothly.
All those things I listed help and do reduce, but don't prevent, bad behaviour.

YY autumn- definitely true of secondary. at my last school I was occasionally criticised for my behaviour management, often had a sore throat from shouting and occasionally had to leave the classroom for a second to calm my nerves.

From my first day at my current school I have barely had a cross word with a student, rarely shout and am regarded as having excellent behaviour management. The schools are both non selective comps.

The difference was not me but the management and policies of each school. When I see people saying 'shouty teachers shouldn't do the job it makes me sad.

If there are lots of shouty teachers at ops school may be the kids are very difficult there or smt are not good.

P.s the shoutiest teacher I know (who is an excellent teacher by the way) just got a job at the most prestigious school in the south east. I have a funny feeling they will not object to his strategies!

thegreylady what would have you been your response when the children told you to go f* yourself when you asked them
To stay behind after giving out the title quietly.

I never had that happen.My response would be [to a secondary pupil]"If you don't do the assignment you won't get the mark.Swearing at me is not something I will tolerate so don't stay behind,go to the office.You will not come back into my class without an apology and if you think using the word for sexual intercourse as an obscenity makes you appear grown up you are wrong.It merely makes you sound rather stupid.Off you go.I will let the Head know why you are coming to see him."

I think most adults would find keeping order in a class of children really hard. This is why we should cherish good teachers. My DD was lucky enough to have some excellent teachers in her primary school who never shouted, but who always had complete control over their class. I remember her year 1 teacher had a technique which was to start clapping her hands slowly when kids started being noisy. The kids would start joining in, and when she had everyone clapping rather than talking, she would stop and fold her arms. Extremely effective.

So I agree with the OP. But the teacher needs to be trained in good classroom management techniques that don't involve shouting.

thegreylady
"You will not come back into my class without an apology"

If you can get that to stick, I want to work in your school.

It did actually work. I retired 14 years ago so maybe thing s are different now. I taught in very average comps in the Wigan area and there were some challenging pupils but we had a supportive hierarchy who would have responded ferociously to anyone swearing at a teacher.

the grey lady

You have pretty much proved my point. At some schools if every time a student swore at a teacher they were sent to the head, the head would do nothing else.
You had good strategies that were backed up by a supportive head. One does not work without the other.

It depends entirely on the context of the "shouting". I teach drama, if I've got a group of 30 yr 10/ doing practical work in the hall, then the chances of getting them all to stop and come and sit in a circle on the floor without raising my voice is slim to none. However, that's different to shouting at a DC/group of DC, which, I agree, is poor classroom management in most cases.

thegreylady - 14 years! It certainly has changed! I have been teaching for 23, and it has changed beyond all recognition. Low level disruption is worse, lack of respct endemic and you can't refuse to take a child back into your room. Furthermore, if the hypothetical GCSE candidate failed because they had not title and therefore no mark, the person in trouble would be you not him/her. It's best to only offer advice when you have current working knowledge of the area under discussion, I find.