to be surprised by how many people are anti-immigration?

[Mimstar]

I was called naive today. Apparently 'if you aren't concerned by immigration, you've got your head in wonderland'.

And I thought - actually, I know hardly anybody else who isn't anti-immigration.

I'm trying to understand this attitude, it seems so common nowadays. Maybe I do have my head in wonderland.

I'm so tired of hearing 'job stealers!' type comments.

Btw OP, I have no time for the "job stealers" comments either, especially when they come from people who have scarcely done a days work in their lives and who are not qualified to do the jobs which immigrants are doing.

Of course we could ask WHY we are producing so many people unable to fill the skilled jobs employers have......but that is a whole other thread.

subliminal, not everyone can claim CB, even if they do pay tax. Non-EU migrants typically have no recourse to public funds unless they have ILR.

But you are a higher rate tax payer, married to a British man, and I have no idea why you came to Britain in the first place or whether it was because of him, but clearly you are in a situation where there is an overall net benefit to your being here. Not every immigrant is like you - in fact most of them are not. The vast majority of first generation immigrants do not come here to be brain surgeons, or lawyers they come to be cleaners and mini cab drivers and restaurant workers and other manual or blue collar relatively low paid jobs. Nothing wrong with that whatsoever - and good luck to them if the want to work and make a better life from themselves, but my point was, and still is, with several million economically inactive British people already here and perfectly capable of being trained to do these jobs, so we NEED them? Some people make it sound like the country would collapse if we didn't have recent immigrants to empty our bins and wash our cars and serve us our caramel lattes - it wouldn't.

I meant do we, not so we!

So you're talking primarily about EU immigration then, subliminal? To measure the cost/benefit of that, I guess you'd need to look at the overall cost/benefit of our EU membership, you can't just look at incoming migrants alone.

But it appears that alot of these restaurant work or low paid work does not appeal to these able bodied British people. (According to the CBI and other reports).

Interestingly I was recently chatting to a current pg student of mine who's been made restaurant manager at a local place (even though that's not what she studied for) and she said she was having trouble recruiting waiting staff. Reasons include lack of motivation, reluctance to work on weekends, ignorance (how do I put on this apron?)....

Panorama (I think) did a documentary about two or so years ago looking at why so many low paid and unskilled (relatively) jobs were filled by immigrants. They took a number of British unemployed young adults and placed them in the jobs that the immigrants were doing. Now by immigrants they also included seasonal workers for the documentary.
The British youngsters just could not keep up...it was embarrassing to watch. One factory which employed a lot of East European workers took three British men off the dole queue and employed them for three weeks......once the employer had dealt with the racism, the men became pretty good employees....at least two of them did, the third didn't show up after the first few days. After three weeks the factory employed them officially I seem to recall.

The fruit pickets were very very slow in comparison to the seasonal workers, they were unfit and needed more breaks.
The worst one was in an Indian restaurant where a young lad was taken in as a waiter......he didn't even last the shift. The owner not only accepted this but then graciously gave him lunch.

Now I accept that this documentary had a point to make, that it was edited to make the British workers look poor....and they certainly chose several who lived up to the stereotype but it was embarrassing to see.

The farmer who employed the fruit pickets showed the massive difference.....even after three weeks in what the British achieved into king and what his foreign seasonal workers managed. He said he just could not justify employing any of the British workers.

I say again that I doubt this was representative of ALL unemployed British workers. ....but it was pretty depressing.

sub, I think that logic is pretty limited, TBH. You can't calculate the benefit of immigration by looking at one person moving and asking if, net, they bring in money (though I agree it can be helpful to make people aware that immigration does bring in money, especially non-EU immigration). You need to look at all the other aspects that aren't so readily quantifiable. I feel very proud of living in Britain and a big part of that is that we are diverse, we draw on lots of traditions and we're developing skills, as a country, to cater to a diverse population. There is a huge amount of day-to-day exchange, and educational practice, and academic research, that relies on Britain being a diverse country, and a country with a strong tradition of immigration. We need it.

No Jinsei, why do you think I meant EU migrants specifically? Was it the caramel lattes and the car washing?

First 33 year of my life I lived in a town with 97% of population being 1st and 2nd generation migrants. Basically, some mineral resource was discovered in the area, and 5k-strong village grew to 300k-strong town over 25 years.

Before I moved to the UK, I had not been even introduced to the idea that something may be wrong with all these initiative, active, responsible for their lives and eager to work people.

But it appears that alot of these restaurant work or low paid work does not appeal to these able bodied British people.

Aaah! and now you are onto something.....

I remember seeing that Jake. I agree it was depressing and humiliating to watch. It was in 'Pitty Borrow' wasn't it?

I don't really get why we need to get into the stereotype 'feckless British poor people' in order to justify immigration, which it sounds like that programme was doing. There are quite a lot of people who were born here who do do the minimum-wage, unpleasant jobs. The difficult thing to accept might be that, as an economy, we do not have as many good blue-collar jobs as we may have done a couple of generations ago?

No, I assumed that you meant EU migrants because unskilled workers from the EU can't just rock up and do whatever work they like. Their employer first has to demonstrate that they aren't able to recruit locally.

Sure, many non-EU migrants do work in unskilled jobs. International students, for example, may work PT in restaurants and bars, but typically they bring in far more money to the economy than they take out. Those on spouse visas can also do unskilled jobs, but their spouses must demonstrate before they come into the country that they can support the immigrant partner without recourse to public funds.

There's a limit to how much work you can do on a student visa, anyway (which I know you know jinsei, but just in case people don't).

My mate came over here to do her MA and PhD, which means she's paid a shitload in (education is one of the UK's biggest earners IIRC). She's worked part-time throughout. She is now not going to be able to use the skills she's learned to go on in academia because she can't find a postdoc that earns above the threshold for a visa, and if that continues she may very well take her UK-earned skills back to the US. She'll still have made a (big) net contribution, but it does seem a bit of a waste really.

Busting through the bollocks myth #1: this bollocks about "racism" is a massive red herring.

Put your hand up if you've got a problem with a French/American black family moving in next door and he's a doctor?

That's right, none of you.

Nobody has a problem with the immigration of "high value" citizens - regardless of colour or creed.

Busting through the bollocks myth #2: "immigrants aren't entitled to any benefits"

I'm moving to the UK next year - I am entitled to a council house (homeless), child benefit, tax credits, WTC, CTC, free NHS - oooh ladidah you'll say I have to wait 6 months. Nope, present myself at A&E and I'm entitled to all health care. Free transport, school meal, educational classes for all of us.

None of you have any knowledge of how much money I have, but I am entitled (and might even take) that council house offered on a platter for me.

I'm sorry, but that isn't true at all, cairn.

No-one has said immigrants aren't entitled to any benefits. But non-EU migrants have 'no recourse to public funds'.

As to the racism, oh, I'd love to live in your perfect world - I've seen plenty of racism against non-white doctors, immigrants and not, and frankly I find it hard to believe you claiming you haven't.

Did you even read the thread before deciding that these 'myths' were being spread?

Get rid of passports, visas, all of it. It's all BS.

But don't be so free with giving access to benefits, and stop giving free healthcare to everyone who stumbles in. The UK is unbelievably, stupidly generous.

For example, it costs me nothing to visit a doctor when I'm in the UK. Even in my home country, a basic GP visit is thirty-five pounds. What on earth is the rationale for that? You can't afford it, you're even broker than we are.

I'm (or rather, was) a non-EU migrant, too.

t won't necessarily be a council house Cairn, but yes, if you arrive with children you will be housed one way or another, and will probably be eligible to rent privately and claim HB.

DH pointed out last night, which I forgot to post, that apparently the EU country with the highest levels of immigration at the moment is Germany.

Guess whose economy isn't going down the toilet?

Hmm.

As to the free healthcare, frankly, thank god.

And I completely agree with what you said about Myth #1.

And much of what you said about Myth #2 is indeed correct.

Germanys economy isnt doing so well at the moment. There was a programme about that a few days ago. Cant remember what it was called.

Let us not forget in all of this, that we as UK citizens can easily go work in other EU countries - which is what my kids have done.

It's rated higher than ours.