to be surprised by how many people are anti-immigration?

[Mimstar]

I was called naive today. Apparently 'if you aren't concerned by immigration, you've got your head in wonderland'.

And I thought - actually, I know hardly anybody else who isn't anti-immigration.

I'm trying to understand this attitude, it seems so common nowadays. Maybe I do have my head in wonderland.

I'm so tired of hearing 'job stealers!' type comments.

I think you are confusing immigration with racism - did you want a pat on the back for being so liberal

The thing is, so many people do confuse concern over the high levels of immigration, (and more importantly the medium and long term long term social and economic implications of it) with simple racism.

Or at least I suspect that sometimes they understand perfectly well what the concerns are but they prefer to win their argument by closing down debate by claiming that your concerns are rooted in racism and nothing else.

depends if you would like to talk about
Immigrants
asylum seekers or
those that enter the country illegally.

three different things that most people get confused about

Yes, I guess the simpleminded comment was a bit insulting. Forgive me. As an immigrant whose native tongue is not English, i can only say... My bad

Well, anyway, so to summarise: do you support unlimited immigration or do you think beyond a certain number it becomes untenable? If so, what is this number?

I'm an immigration solicitor.

I am not surprised by how many people are anti-immigration. As in, I get told by people a lot that they are, not that I think immigration is bad (obviously).

Completely MimStar. I am hiding this thread because I can see how Its going to go but just wanted to say YNBU. Here you are OP.

You sound naive. The problem with immigration is the massive strain it is putting on our infrastructure.

For every immigrant that comes here there is more pressure on the NHS, on roads, on refuge collection. The class sizes are out of control with substantial amounts of time being spent on teaching basic English to those with no grasp of the language.

But it's all lovely being so liberal.

It is a issue on the fact we do not have unlimited land, health care or schools..

However to fix any of this would be hard... Build more? No people want nice green areas... I don't want to live in a country that is wall to wall buildings.

Maybe we need a percent rather than a number, say 25%-35% of the uk's population can be made up of immigrants..

A big thing that affected the numbers was the boarder becoming open due to the eu, alot want to leave the eu alot want to stay but leaving may stop new people coming but can you really see the govt kicking those out who are already here?

I live in a city that has been hit hard...

We where in the paper for being the only city in England to have a school where it is 100% esl, in a part of the city where a lot of natives won't even enter as they don't understand any of the shops signs/foods etc scary

I think maybe one of the issues with immigrants is in them sending money back home.

I am British - I work here, I spend all of my money here (insofar as anyone can). I have a job, the money I earn pays my taxes & is returned into the economy through purchases, bills & more taxes...and more taxes

But an immigrant sending money home is not returning their money to the economy. Sure, they are paying their income taxes, but are not returning money via purchases & the tax (VAT etc) on them. So from the economy's point of view, their money goes missing.

TBH, I'm thick as two short planks, so I may be talking bollocks, but surely this is another concern along with the schools, police & NHS?

A house near me has polish workmen living there, they work very hard. There are 5 of then sharing a double room andtake it in turns to sleep while others are at work then vice versa. Its a four bedroom house and each room has the same set up. They are paid a daily wage, which in reality would be below minimum wage for the amount of hours worked.

There families are back home, and they send money to their families.

A workman with a family based here would not be able to compete with the low hourly rate, as the money wouldn't stretch.

So my concern is two fold. Firstly quality of live for the workman all squeezed into inadequate housing and

Secondly reducing the income of ordinary working class people though working for a much lower wage.

As an immigrant myself (been here 16 years, never claimed benefits and work in a high skilled job) I have never felt more unwelcome than I do. I'm lucky that my English is so good that people don't identify me as not English when I speak or write, but the hostility is increasing.

I wish people would stop blaming others and start looking at solutions - they will be difficult and complex, involving increasing the economic 'pull' of countries of origin (improving economic prospects and pay in Eastern Europe) and also involving upskilling British people so that they can compete on a level playing field.

Employers who undercut wages to the point of illegally not paying NMW also need to be tackled, and firmly.

However, the big problem of jobs that British people consider 'too good' for them needs addressing alongside it all.

I always wonder if those that are anti-immigration are also anti-emigration.

...than I do now... of course. And I can't even blame autocorrect, I'm on a laptop.

I agree obviously there would be issues with huge, uncontrolled immigration, but I think a lot of people who are knee-jerk anti-immigration do come across as a bit (or a lot) xenophobic, so it becomes hard to have the debate without them dominating it, instead of the people who have realistic concerns.

I am not criticising, btw, but some of the comments on this thread about immigrants coming from appalling poverty and working at badly-paid jobs are making me a bit uncomfortable. Yes, people do immigrate from countries substantially poorer than the UK; yes, some immigrants work low-paid jobs. But people immigrate to the UK from the US, from Australia, from France and Germany, and work as doctors and university academics and engineers - and I think we could argue we need these people.

Equally, some of us who were born in the UK will inevitably emigrate at some point, and so will some of our children, and I think we would feel really uncomfortable if we imagined all immigrants being pictured by the host country as poor, ignorant of the issues, and destined to be low-paid workers.

Sometimes we need exchanges of people between countries, or we'd become ridiculously insular.

"We are people and no person is more important than the next regardless of where they were born"

I agree, but you can't escape the fact that mass immigration is unsustainable.

It seems I may be a minority ln this thread but I think in many ways the UK gets a good deal out of immigrants.

I didn't come to the UK until I was a fully grown and educated adult. The UK did not pay for my education. The UK did not pay for my mother's maternity costs nor my healthcare as a child. I have cost the UK very little compared to someone who was born here. I started working and paying British taxes within three days of being in the country and have continued to do so for ten years.

I work in the NHS so contribute to the running and provision of the very services that are 'supposedly' under strain from immigrants.

I don't know the actual figures but I'd be willing to bet at least some, if not a lot of immigrants are like me.

Immigration is a huge issue and being concerned does not make you racist. Immigration could be dealt with a lot better than it is. Decisions should be made quicker. I deal with a lot of asylum seekers. They sign in regularly often for years. If the decision was made quicker it would make it easier for everyone.

I do think we should be a bit more aware of the reasons that people come to our country instead of banging on about foreigners etc. Quite frankly if I lived somewhere where I was living in fear and poverty with a family to feed and had a chance of a better life elsewhere I'd take it.

But, something needs to change. We cannot cope with the current amount of immigrants/asylum seekers if it continues as it is.

YANBU OP. nor are you naive.
It irritates me that people talk about the EU immigration situation and conveniently forget that it is a two way street, and that there are English people going elsewhere in the EU to work as well. (You hear English voices all the time in Berlin for example, or all those "ex-pats" in Spain who amazingly enough forget that they themselves are immigrants.)
Where oh where do people expect the tax money for state pensions (the single biggest part of benefit payments) to come from? Government hate to admit that this is one of the only ways they can sustain the welfare bill in the absence of proper enforcement of corporation taxes.
Don't get me started on the dickheads who complain about illegal immigrants "claiming benefits." It's not actually possible.
That said, net immigration is on the rise again after a few years of relative stability. However, I can only see it increasing as Gideon & Co. are so desperate to prove that they have fixed the economy. With quantatitive easing, indiscriminate slashing of benefits and immigrants doing sub- minimum waged work in order to stimulate industry.

One could argue that it is naive to be anti-immigration in a free market economy. If you're a fan of capitalism and all that....

I don't think people are against immigration. If more people were leaving the country than coming in then fine. Immigration would be encouraged. But this is simply not the case. And if our education and health service could cope with the numbers then fine. The trouble is they can't. If it doesn't concern you then fine don't be concerned.

A large proportion of immigrants have no recourse to public funds endorsed on their visas ( not counting EEA nationals.). This means they have no right to student support like loans and grants, most social security benefits, will struggle massively to get on housing waiting lists, no access to secondary health services at the point of arrival (although they may acquire NHS eligibility later). Migrant children can access schools, however.

I don't think anyone who isn't concerned about migration is ridiculous or naive. I would hazard a bet that the vast majority of people with anti-immigration views would be able to tell you nowt about the percentage of public service spending on 'immigrants' and how this compares with tax receipts from the same group.

Viviennemary has just put it brilliantly

^^Everything Ragusa said so eloquently.

Is it true our education and health services can't cope?

Certainly with HE (which I know is a bit different), they make a lot of money off foreign students who come over here.

i am doing everything i can to go home and take my family with me

i am aware of how unwelcome we are everytime i open a newspaper, read a few thread like this, or overhear conversations between locals about 'them'

when i came i thought if i worked hard, contributed, kept my head down etc. i coukd get by and make a life here

in reality i live in a country where UKBA stop people in the street and demand to see your papers (if you don't have them with you, you can end up arrested, even though carrying id is not a legal requirement for any resident of the uk) and where government vans drive round with GO HOME written on the side.

yeah, i feel unwelcome.

with luck i will be gone within the year. i feel sorry for any immigrants who can't go back for whatever reason

But you are welcome, to many of us, you are.

OP I am with you. I have taken advantage of student visas, working visas and the EU open border policy to live abroad in various countries. In the UK at the moment because of DH's job but we hope to leave again within the next five years.

I would be very hypocritical to be in favour of emigration and not immigration.

Couldn't agree more with Ragusa's last sentence.