To think the London Underground staff who use 'elf and safety as an excuse not to help people with buggies at stations without lifts are basically being bone idle

[quesadilla]

Tried to get into central London yesterday alone with dd in buggy. At two separate stations without lifts I asked for help and was told they couldn't because of health and safety or insurance. (And i have heard this several times before.) Given that only about 10 per cent of tube stations have lifts I think refusing to help in any way is lame and amounts to discrimination, albeit of a passive and unintentional kind. I know that sounds a bit hysterical but the practical outcome of this situation is that if your child needs to be in a buggy and if you don't have anyone with you to help you you cannot travel on the underground...

i've always found the other passengers to be really helpful on the underground, never the staff. i honestly would not think it was their job though to help me with a buggy and for that reason never took my phil and ted on the underground.

If you know you are using the tube, use a buggy you can lift. Or use a sling.

If you have health issues that mean you can't lift a buggy or use a sling, I assume you could classify yourself disabled and ask for help from the staff on that basis.

That's interesting wannabe hadn't even thought of how people would manage with a guide dog

Are many escalator trained?

OP

You might want to get in touch with these people.

www.hse.gov.uk/contact/myth-busting.htm

"Health and Safety is too often used as an excuse for poor customer service"

OK I accept that on an individual basis many of them are probably restricted by their station's policies etc etc. Perhaps they really will get into trouble if they help, although my gut feeling is that a lot of them genuinely can't be arsed.

I notice that no passengers ever decline help with a buggy, and presumably none of them are insured against this either.

But institutionally I just think its really unacceptable that it is made materially harder for such a large sub section of the population to get in and out of the underground.

To be fair, Boris seems to be working quite hard on getting the lift problem dealt with and they are progressing in this department. But its slow.

Disabled people, quite rightly, are entitled to help at stations, no-one says to them "its not LU staff's problem you're disabled." Millions of people with small children are effectively put in the same situation, single parents, parents whose partners aren't able to help etc etc. If its genuinely a health and safety risk (which I have my doubts about) then can't they just redraft their insurance policy to take account of this?

You can bet that if a disabled person brought a lawsuit agains LU staff for failing to help on the grounds of health and safety they would have a good case.

Much of the Tube is Victorian, doesn't have lifts and is unlikely ever to have lifts (though it is being retrofitted where it can be). Maps are however very clear about what types of access are available at which stations and you have to plan your journey accordingly.

If you have a heavy pushchair, you will need to replan your route. If you use the Tube regularly, the the best solution is a pushchair you can namaste singlehanded. Umbrella fold with shoulder strap is a good solution, and has the extra advantage of being narrower so flitting onto buses better as well.

A disabled person is unlikely to ask station staff to lift them anywhere. There is a big difference between carrying an object, or being helpful in other ways, and actually bing asked to lift a person, therefore being directly responsible for their safety.

A member of the public is not the same as station staff either. They help at their own risk, and if they hurt their back while helping you, they would have no where to go if they wanted to sue. Whereas you could sue LU if one if their staff members injured your baby.

Why should they have to amend their insurance policy, and then probably put up ticket prices just because you don't want to use one of the other easily available methods of carrying your baby, like using a sling?

"I notice that no passengers ever decline help with a buggy, and presumably none of them are insured against this either. "

They are also not likely to be at the station all day being asked by everyone. So it's their choice.

But OP, you are not disabled. Having a baby and using a buggy is what millions of people do. Lack of escalators is not the personal responsibility of staff. You need to plan better (sling, route) or ask someone else to help.

YABU. You choose to use a buggy, you choose to use the tube and to get off at stations without a lift. If you've bought a buggy you can't easily fold up and comfortably lift, that's your problem.

A buggy isn't anymore special than bags of heavy shopping, or a bike, or luggage or piles of work being brought home. If a staff member helped even 0.1 percent of the people dealing with heavy, difficult to maneuver items that would still be hundreds every week. They'd develop back problems very quickly.

It would be great if all stations had lifts, not for blasted buggies but for people with limited mobility.

But at numerous stations and on numerous routes its just not possible to get around this.

I am sorry I just think its just an institutionalised "not my problem guv" mindset and while I don't necessarily blame individual staff for it I think it's screwed up.

If you encountered a similar challenge in a private organisation (a health club, a shop or a hotel), you would never get that attitude.

OP is there a reason you can't use a sling? Or carry your own buggy? You seem to be ignoring the fact that many thousands of parents manage public transport every day without help. It is perfectly possible.

quesa In which case the problem is with the station design, not the staff members. And yes, you'd get exactly the same reaction in a private organisation, if they are not trained to lift heavy/awkward objects then they are also not insured. I know when I worked in retail the rules were the same.

quesadilla are you so weak you cannot carry your own baby?

Actually, small businesses don't have to have accessibility for wheelchairs, for example. Even my Dom's school extension (built around 8 years ago) could get away without a ramp for various reasons. So there are exceptions. The fact LU is massive makes it more difficult to defend but it's not the staff's fault. You OP seem to think it IS lazy staff who is at fault here.

Son's

It's not their problem though.

You are not disabled, they don't have any moral or legal obligation to accommodate the things that are essentially your choices.

Kmc makes a good point. How far do you want to take this? Do you think staff should be constantly available to help anyone who has heavy shopping, a bike, a shopping trolley, a heavy instrument, multiple pieces of luggage?

When it's about your choice, rather than you need, it could very easily and very quickly become ridiculous. You are not in a protected position just because you choose to transport your baby in a buggy that you can't manage on your own.

I would imagine it is London underground's policy, and that they are indeed uninsured to do so. In my experience other members of the public are ALWAYS happy to help if you stop and wait at the top or bottom of a flight of stairs for a moment. And they don't need insurance to do so as they are not doing it in the course of their employment. Yes, I suppose technically you could sue them as an individual if they dropped your buggy/injured your baby, but have you ever heard of that happening? If it was to happen I think there would be massive news coverage and people would rapidly stop offering to help. But I think if a member of staff helped in the course of their employment that would be a totally different matter.

As I said I have never not had offers of help when travelling with a buggy. When DS was tiny I used to always use a sling if I could, and then I remember an awkward phase when he was really too big to take in the sling for a full day out but was still in the big unfoldable pushchair. I remember feeling a bit panicky sometimes in case no one helped, but they always did. Then we got a pushchair which was easy to fold with one hand, and since then I always knew that if I had to I could get DS out and carry him and the buggy together. Once he could walk up and down stairs himself it got much easier, and people have still always taken the buggy off me so that I can concentrate on holding his hand. People are kind.

Now we have stopped using a buggy altogether but am about to have ds2... that's going to be interesting!

I am slightly incredulous that people think you need training to help someone carry a pram up some stairs.

oh stop being so silly. You're not discriminated against - carry your baby in a sling, or learn how to manage the pushchair on your own, or go by bus.

I never take a huge heavy pushchair on the tube (my H does though as he can manage on his own). a sling makes it so much easier.

You're not discriminated against - disabled people are hugely discriminated against on the tube and buses in fact. Maybe spend your energies campaigning for a truly discriminated against section of society than you with your heavy bugaboo or whatever.

You still haven't answered whether there is a reason you can't use a sling or carry your own buggy (like the rest of us do)?

You can buy umbrella fold buggys for fairly cheap nowadays and many come with a shoulder strap. Backpack baby change bag (primark do backpacks) and hold the baby. For younger babies you can use a sling. No need to make a song and dance about it TBH.

My dd is too big for a sling and I sometimes carry her but we live in a suburban station and there's a lot of walking around. I don't expect people to "bail me out" all the time as someone put it, but I would like to think if I am alone and struggling and ask for help I am not going to get some jobsworth standing there with folded arms saying he/she can't help.

If I am BU fair enough. I don't think I am though.

Why on earth can you not carry your pram?

We had a really lightweight McClaren when my ds were little. I could either fold it and carry it over my shoulders and so had my hands free to carry baby. I dont see why this should be a problem?

No, you find a different way to travel. I don't drive. My DH works. I have no family living close by.
I don't have a pushchair now, but what should I have done then, juts stayed within walking distance of the house?