To agree with the Headmistress to send home pupils who do not conform to regulation school uniform.

[annemary12]

I am totally fed up with school pupils who look a mess and are not dressed in correct or regulation school uniform. I never understand why many schools allow 6th form pupils free will in their choice of clothes.

I think that if pupils are unable to abide by school uniform regulations what hope of they got when they leave school and are going to interviews.

I believe that all school pupils including 6th form pupils should wear a regulation school blazer and school tie so they can show which school they go to.

Headmistress like Leslie ellis are standing up for standards that have been in decline since the 1970"s and need to be fully supported in their desire to hold standards to at least the very shoddy standards that pupils display today. I for one am delighted that a head was prepared to take ridicule and derision in standing up for standards.

After reading the constant criticism of leslie ellis i thought it was time that someone stood up for a upstanding member of the teaching profession.

Nice to know the police don't want assaults reported. I was always under the impression that the school were only responsible while the pupils were on school grounds although some heads would discipline them. In fact it's what the police told my SIL when DN was assaulted.

If I ever have the misfortune to be assaulted I'll be sure to keep my mouth shut and let them away with it.

I'm sorry your dd is having a hard time, but the bullies are bullied because they r well.. Bullies. What they are wearing and what school they attend has no bearing on that fact. They would still have parents who didn't give a shit (if that's the reason) wherever they went.

It has FA to do with their uniform. Perhaps the school can come down harder but when schools aren't able to enforce parents get rid of nuts, quite what you expect them to do about upbringings I don't know,

Teach your dd to be the better person keep her head up high and take pride in raising her right. And be thankful she stands a better chance in this world than those poor kids who's parents don't care enough to do anything about their behaviour. Believe me they won't be laughing when it's pice cells and criminal records.

Nuts? Nits

I see that the OP has now provided yet another reason why wearing school uniform is a bad thing. Without the uniform it would be a great deal less obvious who went to which school and the organised intra-school fights would become a lot less likely. At that level it is essentially tribalism, made worse by the divisive nature of selective schooling. No doubt the children at the comp think that the ones at grammar are stuck up snobs, being well aware what they are called in return.

OP I feel sorry for yo that you feel you can't report your dd's assault to the police (perhaps because from the sound of it she might well have been charged herself) and that you live in fear of your dh. I don't know what your dh is a "superintendent" of, but a fight outside of school grounds is absolutely under the police's authority, as a breach of the peace if nothing else.

nooka. With DH being a Police Superintendent,there were two reasons why he did not want it reported.

1. Because DH is a Superintendent it could have made both DS/DD bigger targets with the pupils from the other school. It would be awful if every time DS/DD got of the school bus they heard "GRUNTING NOISES" and other disgusting remarks.

1. Because DD is a black belt in Judo and is excellent at Thai boxing,when the first girl hit DD she threw her to the ground and held the girl down. With DH being a senior police officer he was worried that if he was to "CAUTION" the other girl for the assault, he would have been forced to caution DD.

DH says unless a pupil is physical injured it is not in the school or pupils intrests to call the police. The pupil/pupils could end up with cautions for just pushing or minor incidents.

"THAT" school has had a reputation for 25 years, i should know i was"EDUCATED" there. I was determined that none of my DCs would ever have the bad luck of having to go "THAT" school.

annemary How do you think uniform would actually help improve matters at this 'other' school?

I think uniform is a red herring here. I really can't see it having a positive impact on discipline.

In fact if a very expensive uniform was introduced it could make things worse. By this I mean a uniform that the parents at this school couldn't or wouldn't buy that then led to the children being punished. This in turn could make them feel alienated and behave worse, even the good pupils in the school may not see the point of behaving if they're going to be punished for something outwith their control. I'm sure there are good pupils at this school btw but I think it's likely that the bad ones are a lot more noticable.

Given that your family has experienced exactly why school rivalry should never be fostered, why were you apparently claiming that it was an ordinary thing that everyone did earlier? You have seen at first-hand exactly why it's not harmless!

It is appalling that your daughter was attacked because of her school. The other school doesn't need uniform though. The pupils' parents should read their children the riot act, and police should intervene when the pupils commit crimes.

I wish my High School in Detroit had school uniform when i went there. One of the reasons i came to the uk 17 years ago was to escape from "DETROIT" which was becoming un liveable even in the Middle class areas.

One of the greatest things about the UK.s Education system is "SCHOOL UNIFORMS" . In AMERICA the Private and good Religious schools use school uniform and even some schools in the Public Schools system(STATE SYSTEM) have now made school uniform compulsory. those that have uniform have seen massive improvments in behaviour and academic standards. I am greatful that DD15 DS 17 have both been Educated at Kent Grammar Schools with strict uniform requirements.

My brother would give anything for his DCs in Detroit to wear School uniform. He would if he could afford to, send his DCs Private so that they did not have to be educated in the awful Detroit public school system with its free for all dress and "Metal" detectors for "GUNS".

OP that you have no faith in the police system is not the fault of the existence or not of school uniforms. Maybe your DH should sort out the police in your area so they take random assaults more seriously.

expat I don't think the problem in Detroit is lack of uniforms, I think its having guns which schoolchildren can access. Even in fairly rough inner city schools in the UK you can be fairly sure that the pupils doesn't have guns because we have gun control laws, not because the children are in uniforms.

Some children will throw objects or pull knives (rare, but it happens) in schools, but guns are vanishingly rare because so few people can own them.

God help all those Uni students who must be failing in their education from wearing JEANS and TEESHIRTS....

...and using 'RANDOM' quotes, clearly a feature of several of those who support 'SCHOOL uniforms'.

OP Why did you claim the remarks were in "jest" when its clear they wernt.

Indeed, Lancelottie. Quite a 'uniform' STYLE, no?

I loathe school uniform. I am extremely relieved that my daughter's secondary - after her non-uniform primary - is at least a fairly scruffy and conglomerate mix of garments that will just about pass muster.

I do not wish my children to take pride in being branded. I do want them to do well, academically, and have every expectation that their school will equip them to do this. I don't want them to look 'smart'. I want them to look like the energetic, imaginative young women that they are. DD1 spends her weekends in Very Short Shorts over opaque tights, and looks quite splendid.

I would upload a pic of me at Oxford, in really quite bizarre home-made clothes, but it would test your pelvic floors too far.

Love the idea that people have to wear a school uniform to "prepare" them for the world of work. My pupils (very mixed, tiny comp in Scotland) has former pupils who are lawyers, doctors and work on fish farms or boats. Should we segregate them on arrival? Give the clever ones a tie and the potential "workers" a boiler suit, just so they can get used to the "world of work"?

My school has a sensible attitude. It never fails to amaze me that schools wanting to drive up results do so by sending pupils HOME or putting them in ilsolation for not wearing unform rather than actually teaching them something - a solution proven to drive up results.

Come on, motherinferior I need a good laugh .

Oh, sorry - I meant 'I need a GOOD LAUGH'. Because the capitals make it all so much more credible, don't they?

There is no evidence that uniforms improve standards - either in terms of behaviour or in terms of academic achievement. The research is impossible, because implementing uniform changes nearly always goes hand in hand with other measures for schools in trouble - new leadership teams, enhanced inspections, new teaching staff, support from other schools. The only way to ascertain the facts one way or another would be to conduct a randomised controlled trial, and that would be ethically very dubious because you would have to deliberately leave a group of children in a poor school.

As for comparisons with Detroit - you might as well compare apples and lobsters.

Or you could just make the same other improvements but get half the kids wearing uniform and half not, I suppose.

Blazers for 18 year olds is just risible. And those horrible cheap shiny suits the poor buggers end up wearing too.

I know of a few 16/17 yr old pupils who enjoy wearing their uniform and are very pleased their schools at least have a suit and tie for boys and a suit for girls. They would hate the thought of wearing anything,they like uniformity.

How very worrying. Surely the only use for uniform whatsoever is to find a sort of placebo for directing youthful rebellion so at least they stay off the fags and cider?

I know of a few 16/17 yr old pupils who enjoy wearing their uniform and are very pleased their schools at least have a suit and tie for boys and a suit for girls. They would hate the thought of wearing anything,they like uniformity.

Yes, I met one of those at an open evening at DD1's current school - a 17yo 6th former prattling on about how great uniform was because she didn't need to think about what to wear the next day. I'm afraid I told her quite firmly that when I was 17, I didn't have such problems making simple decisions. Heaven help us if that is the future of our country... Long may my DDs carry on wearing odd socks and having a mind of their own.

Bizarrely, one of mine comes home, shucks off his school sweatshirt and puts on an ancient blazer he bought in a charity shop. It looks rather good with an orange t-shirt and battered jeans.

Thank you Expat. For the others i do believe that if the school has stricter dress standards, the behaviour of pupils across the board would improve.

Pointy things. Earlier on i made a point that it is not the 1970s or 80s regarding organising walkout"s over school uniform. i was "SUSPENDED" for refusing to wear a SKIRT when i was 16, this was 1987 things were so different then. I was the ring leader of the no "SKIRT" protest and because my parents were only intrested in Booze and Fags i was not reprimanded or punished.

I thought i was great sticking 2 fingers up at them doing has i pleased WAGGING every lesson on a Monday/ Friday coming in drunk after drinking my parents cans of Special Brew. Standing up with the rest of the 5th years going on Strike in maths throwing Eggs at the Deputy Head and eventually being thrown out before taking my O Levels.
For a good 5 years after i thought i was the "Bees" knees for my Behaviour at school. But like an ex Smoker or Drinker they change from being the Poacher to the Gamekeeper.

God i hated them "SNOBBY" BAST from the Grammar School i wanted to smash every single girl from there in the face.

I was the Girl/s who hit my DD and i am ashamed of what i was.

I believe that if i had a Stricter Family and better discipline from "that" school i could have done well at school. Oh yes they can change the name become an Academy and all kind of fancy things but it will always be"that" school.

OP, standing up for the right to wear trousers would have been a perfectly legitimate thing to do if you had done it very differently.

I don't think you've changed that much, really - you used to be judgemental of one side, now you're judgemental of the other. Same old, same old. And you are very naive to think that uniform would sort out the problems caused by chaotic home lives, parents drinking, doing drugs and not supporting their children's learning.

Your last line actually makes sense - yes, it will always be 'that' school if the only change made is cosmetic. Fancy names are meaningless - you need strong leadership, good buildings, excellent teachers and strong involvement from local services including police, social services and health services.

My older DD's school was on the edge of special measures when she was born and I vowed never to send her there - now it's a good school, despite having a difficult catchment with a lot of deprivation. The head who turned it round is still there. Yes, she changed the uniform to blazers last year, but she handled it perfectly, with flexibility and common sense and it was not done until the school was already firmly on a positive course. That's how you sort a school out.

I do wonder if there has been a memo go out "Head Teacher - how to make your mark":

1. Introduce a new school uniform - ensure uniformity not just in the clothes the students wear but also the sizes - 'I'm sorry Mrs Smith but 6'7" Kevin is going to have to wear a small as we have used up our quota of XXXXL'

1. Introduce a two week timetable - this will guarantee that Disorganised Deirdre spends her entire school career taking PE kit to Pottery and cookery ingredients to History. Nobody except the Head knows whether they are on week A or B.

1. Introduce vertical tutor groups - ensures that all students learn bad habits efficiently from year 7.