Am I being unreasonable to suggest that scooters should be banned on pavements?

[Morgause]

An hour ago I went up the lane to pay the papers. The pavement isn't particularly wide but not very narrow either. A little girl aged 3 -4 scooted past me quite quickly which made me jump a bit as I hadn't heard her coming. I looked round to see her mother with a buggy quite a way back down the lane. She shouted the little girl's name and told her to wait.

I walked past her and into the shop round the corner and paid the bill. As I came back around the corner the mother had caught up with the little girl and she had begun to scoot on again. Unfortunately she scooted straight into an elderly lady just leaving her gate and they both went flying. I called an ambulance and other neighbours came out to see what could be done to help. It looks like the little girl has broken her arm and the old lady may have broken her hip or her leg - maybe both.

The ambulance man said that scooters are a "bloody nuisance" and if kids aren't falling off them they are ploughing into people on them. He thinks they should be banned anywhere but gardens and parks. The local bobby, also present, agreed.

I think the same after what I saw today. M (the old lady) is the sole carer for her elderly husband who is very disabled following a stroke. Goodness knows what will happen to him now. A neighbour is with him for now and is hoping to contact someone from social services for some emergency care.

I think this couple should take their story to the media OP, as it highlights the issue of irresponsible scooter use very succinctly.

And yes if they can sue they should do so.

I would like to see all school children cycling or scotting, walking or skipping to school every day and the road empty of school children stuffed cars

I can find hundreds and hundreds of reports of OAP killed by cars

I have searched for OAP's killed by child scooter and nothing appears

I think this incident was an unfortunate accident. Very sad for all involved but not really anyone's fault.
Not every accident needs blame attached. Scooters with little people on are not uncommon sights on pavements. Old ladies and toddlers sadly break bones very easily. Op said the girl had just set off again after waiting for her mum, so it doesn't sound as though she was out of control and probably not going very fast.

I can see why you are upset op, it does sound like a disaster for the old lady and her family.

WestieMamma I've already explained this.

The bit in bold was the section of someone else's post to which I was responding. It wasn't my thoughts. I thought it was complete and utter tripe and victim blaming. Poor lady was knocked over by an out of control child, seriously injured and that poster was making out like it was all her own fault. Shameful.

Sorry, westiemomma I'm still a bit new to mumsnet and get confused about how quoting is done. It's a lot easier on other sites.

She was going pretty fast, trice, she knocked M off her feet. M had no mobility issues before this so wasn't shaky on her feet, they were knocked from under her.

Unpowered scooters and skateboards cannot legally be used on pavements, footpaths or cycle tracks as they have no right of way, but the DfT admits it is not very practical trying to enforce the law. Local bye-laws can be created banning them.

It is ILLEGAL to use unpowered scooters on pavements, footpaths or cycle tracks. Why is there even a debate about whether its right to break the law or not?

Apparently 2200 people were injured badly enough in 1998 in scooter accidents to need hospital treatment.

Rubbish at linking I'm afraid!

Don't know what current info is and I am definitely not saying ban them completely just more care taken while using them!

Ivy people don't need to be killed for something to be dangerous.

People ARE being injured by irresponsible parents allowing their children to shoot off on something they have no control of. I am not sure how anyone can justify that as being acceptable really?

scooters are not legal on pavements anymore than bikes but small children do use them I also believe that pedestrians always have right of way on pavements even ahead of invalid carriages pushchairs prams wheelchairs etc

the faster moving vehicle or even moving person needs to be aware of slower so a runner/ jogger/ cyclist/wheelchair user etc all need too be mindful of and stop for walkers or go round them

I am not in favour of banning scooters but neither do I think my 3 year old DD has right of way on the pavement when scooting she does not, she is not allowed to scoot on narrow pavements and if congested she has to get off, I would be mortified if my DD caused an accident like this

I agree with much of this thread, even though I have been the mum in charge of speedy scooters. I live in a city where we're often one of only a few pavement users and try not to let the kids use their scooters on busy pavements.

But this:
"Bikes should ride on the road and, if a child isn't proficient enough, they should push their bike on the pavement."

And where are these children supposed to get their proficiency? Do we go straight from "only riding in the park" (how do we get there?) to "out on the road" in one fell swoop?

Riding vehicles under close supervision on quiet pavements is great practice for riding on the road.

I would not let my kids ride on a busy high street pavement, that would be a pushing situation. But in the suburban streets?

I think this was a terrible accident. Really dreadful for all concerned.

We use scooters all the time. We live in the middle of a city and they are very handy for getting about with a small child. On a busy pavement i tend to pull the little one along so that I am in control.

Our local parks are also full of pedestrians and we live in a flat so no garden. Even confining use of scooters/bikes/skateboards to a park doesn't really stop the risk of an accident.

Our children get so little freedom, They are not spoiled little darlings by a long stretch, as I said, we don't have a garden so the streets or the busy park are their only 'playground.'

It was a terrible accident, however from reading op post could have been avoided had the parent been supervised properly.
I dont think there should be a complete ban, but small child should be closely supervised, they shouldnt be racing off ahead.

YANBU at all.

The old woman who was injured may be left with permanent and debilitating injuries. And the parent was clearly not in control.

I'm able-bodied but still find I have to dodge small children who have no idea if space, and parents who are negligent. How anyone can say YABU and that this was an unusual accident us beyond me.

I don't look forward to being old. Unsettling lack of concern for elderly people on this thread.

'And where are these children supposed to get their proficiency? Do we go straight from "only riding in the park" (how do we get there?) to "out on the road" in one fell swoop? '

I hate to shock you, but I learned to ride a bike when I was 19.
First I practised in wide open spaces, then on quiet roads at non-busy times, then on straight roads and only made left turns and finally I was out and about, zooming around roundabouts and coping with shopping as well as RH turns.
At no time did I careen wildly out of control down Cornmarket street, shrieking 'Out of the way' and endangering small pedestrians by my inability to use the brakes.
I didn't become proficient in one fell swoop, I got off and pushed at times when the demands outweighed my skill level.

The law which scooters supposedly break is the Highways Act of 1835, which specifies "carriages" as being banned from the footpath. This has been interpreted as applying to bicycles and Segways (as per the BBC link cited), but I'm not sure it's ever been tested when it comes to scooters.

Given the strength of feeling, I should think it's only a matter of time though ... I wonder if we'll ever see parents of scooting children being given on the spot fines at the school gate?

I don't particularly like scooters

But worse are the mobility scooters, dd nearly got run over when she was toddling along the pavement, the old man 'driving' his scooter was totally oblivious. I still see him from time to time going really fast on the road - mobility scooters pick up quite a speed!

Also I've noticed so many cars pull up onto the pavement these days to park with two wheels on the pavement and two on the road. I've had to grab my DC before their toes get run over and move pretty sharpest myself to get out of the way of the parking car. That can't be right.

Pavements are becoming dangerous!

Sharpish

A bit of legal clarification from Bikehub

CAN CHILDREN CYCLE ON FOOTWAYS?
According to the Department for Transport (DfT), the maximum fine for ‘cycling on the pavement’ (ie footways) from the courts is £500. However it is more usually enforced by way of the Fixed Penalty Notice procedure (FPN) which carries a £30 fine if pleading guilty. However, there is a view that the FPN can only be issued to those over 16.

“The DfT view, from discussions with Home Office, is that the law applies to all but the police can show discretion to younger children cycling on the pavement for whom cycling on the road would not be a safe option.” (See, event the Department for Transport uses the word ‘pavement’).

The age of criminal responsibility is 10 so, technically, only children below this age can cycle on footways without fear of redress.

While adults are not allowed to cycle on ‘footways’ (see definition above), children up to the age of 16 cannot be prosecuted for doing so, see text above for clarification.

And I'm not prepared to deprive my children of the independence and sheer fun of riding a bike until they're 18. So we will proceed on pavements - with caution.

Perhaps there should be a speed limit/guidance on pavements and/or speedometer on scooter.

I call for a ban because an old lady is in hospital waiting for an operation and her helpless husband will have to go into a care home - costing thousands - until (if ever) she is well enough to look after him. She will also probably need expensive care and rehab.

Reason enough, I think.

This thread isn't about cars, they have no relevance to my thoughts. There are plenty of laws to deal with them.

People get injured playing sport as well. This thread isn't about that either.

If irresponsible parents do not control their children on pavements then maybe the law should make them do it. And if a few get sued it may concentrate the minds of others.

Silverapples well done for learning as an adult - a lot of people wouldn't bother at all by then. However for most people bike riding is a part of childhood - not learning til adulthood would be a great pity for many/ most children. My nearly 6 year old spends hours of every day on his bike - he could ride it before he turned 3 and we are lucky that where we live affords him the opportunity to practice lots - he certainly rides better than I and many not especially sporty adults do and does wheelies and tricks - not on the school run or the pavement though and rides off road too. He absolutely has his bike under control. Without his bike, he would be a vastly less happy, active child - and the same can be said for at least 50% of his friends.

The problem is perhaps the lack of cycle paths (by which I mean proper, separate cycle paths, not 30cm strip in the gutter of a busy road which is incredibly dangerous for all but the very competent adult cyclist) in the UK - if there were cycle paths, that would be the proper place for all driver/ rider propelled non motorised wheeled vehicle - bike or scooter. I don't suppose that can/ will ever be resolved though.

Morgause sad and awful though the accident has been for Ma nd her husband, one isolated non fatal incident isn't reason enough to extrapolate a national ban on anything at all.

All sorts of accidents happen every day and very unfortunately "innocent" (as in uninvolved" bystanders get hurt in some of them. It is horrible, but it is part of life and it would be impossible to ban everything that sometimes causes an injury to somebody who has not chosen to be involved. The reference to how many injuries cars cause is relevant because its an example of something society allows to be in common use including for absolutely non essential purposes, despite the fact they cause vast numbers of horrible accidents, injuries and death to innocent parties.