Am I being unreasonable to suggest that scooters should be banned on pavements?

[Morgause]

An hour ago I went up the lane to pay the papers. The pavement isn't particularly wide but not very narrow either. A little girl aged 3 -4 scooted past me quite quickly which made me jump a bit as I hadn't heard her coming. I looked round to see her mother with a buggy quite a way back down the lane. She shouted the little girl's name and told her to wait.

I walked past her and into the shop round the corner and paid the bill. As I came back around the corner the mother had caught up with the little girl and she had begun to scoot on again. Unfortunately she scooted straight into an elderly lady just leaving her gate and they both went flying. I called an ambulance and other neighbours came out to see what could be done to help. It looks like the little girl has broken her arm and the old lady may have broken her hip or her leg - maybe both.

The ambulance man said that scooters are a "bloody nuisance" and if kids aren't falling off them they are ploughing into people on them. He thinks they should be banned anywhere but gardens and parks. The local bobby, also present, agreed.

I think the same after what I saw today. M (the old lady) is the sole carer for her elderly husband who is very disabled following a stroke. Goodness knows what will happen to him now. A neighbour is with him for now and is hoping to contact someone from social services for some emergency care.

I didn't feel good or "put them in their place" Felicia what an unpleasant thing to say. The father was spreading a totally made up version of what happened. Other people knew this wasn't the case and told him so. The community aren't ganging up on anyone, they are supporting an elderly couple going through an awful time. No one is attacking the other family in the street.

I'm sure the mother does feel awful and stressed, her dd is hurt. But her stress is minor compared to the stress M, A and their son are going through. M and A are very frightened for their future. If they don't have a legal claim then I'm sure they'll be told this week. If they do have a claim then I don't see why it shouldn't be pursued. The money would make their future more comfortable, secure and a lot less frightening. They wouldn't bother if they had plenty of money, I'm sure.

I've said before that I'm not usually in favour of litigious action but in this is one case where throwing money at it would help. Insurance companies usually settle rather than let it go to court if they think they might lose and have to pay costs as well.

I don't know if M is hard of hearing, I don't think so. I can't remember hearing the scooter either, do they all make a noise?

"The accident was between an adult who could have looked more carefully and therefore avoided being injured."

You assume she wasn't look carefully!

This thread has irritated me because I am disabled and unstable on my feet. I am really careful and slow and look where I'm going but some scooting people (whether they be adults or children - although I've only ever encountered the latter) are really blimmin' fast! I am not calling for scooters to be banned or shouting "SUE SUE SUE" but I think that some people are ignoring the fact that there are vulnerable, unstable people on the pavements and a little consideration would go a long way.

It depends on the width of the pavement and the density of pedestrians. Where I live, scooters are a means of transport for DC coming and going to school or to tennis, swimming etc. Banning them would mean more cars on the roads, which is precisely what the city is trying to counteract.

Scooters need to be used responsibly, of course.

YANBU. I nearly reversed over my parents neighbours DS yesterday because he scooted way too ahead of her as I was reversing out of their (parents) drive. I'm not exaggerating when I say if it hadn't been for the parking sensors in dh's car, I'd have hit him - I was 1/2 way over the pavement already. When I stopped the car, instead of waiting for me or his mother, he & his brother then proceeded to scoot in front of the car. Really stupid & irresponsible of their mother IMO. Absolutely no sense what so ever. I was genuinely a bit shaken afterwards.

God reading this thread I'm glad mine are bigger now. Elderly women fracture their hips all the time ; at home, on ice, getting out of the bath to blame the small child or the mother is horrible. FWIW Ds had a balance bike to get to nursery when he was 2&3 he biked at 5-6 mph we used to ride our bikes in the road beside him (him on the pavement close to the road) IYSWIM so he was on the road side of the pavement. We decided this was the safest /greenest option to do a nursery run of 3 miles (so 1/2 hr each way). Ds is 9 now and confidently rides on the road with one of us, still get shouted at by motorists who feel it's unsafe. You seriously cannot win no matter what you do.

and stinky moo I can't stand people backing out of driveways, that realy is dangerous. Back in and drive out forward it is not pavement users responsibility to look out for cars on the pavement !

You seemed quite pleased that the father had been set straight, Morgause. A father whose daughter is injured and he's understandably defensive.

A legal battle over an accident is far from what these people need now. Any of them. The stress of it would hardly be good for the old lady, the family could be utterly destroyed, lose their house and who knows what else. You really think that's in the best interests of everyone? That's aside from the wider impact it has on the drip feed of us becoming far to American in our Sue Them outlook.

Yes scooters make a noise. Hard plastic wheels on concrete isn't exactly quiet. You can hear them coming (unless you're hard of hearing, not really thinking about it or there is other noise, obviously). In fact it's the noise that drives me mad more than the dodging kids when walking to school.

Candycoated, I'm not saying that consideration isn't necessary It absolutely is and I'm sure this woman and her daughter will probably never make the same mistake again. I'm saying that baying for the blood of the parent of a little girl who was involved in an accident and was herself hurt is unfair. And calling for scooters to be banned on pavements is just stupid.

and widespread cycle lanes would prevent these problems.

Maybe there is a market for scooters with a parental handle on the back for children too young to freely scooting. Or I'm sure it is an engineering possibility to limit downhill speeds by having a light mechanical brake when the scooter is angled down.

though not the problem of motorists thinking they own the pavement out side their house sadly !

I struggle with this as our path exits onto the pavement and has high walls in both sides so you can't see the pavement before stepping out. It's also on a hill and the neighbours up the hill have lots of children and scooters. I have a 3yo DS and I'm 21 weeks pregnant and leaving the house is treacherous as they coast silently and at great speed down the hill and I dread to think what would happen if we stepped out at the wrong time

I'm with Bonsoir on this. The key factor here was a lack of control - the parent failing to supervise the child properly and the child failing to control the scooter properly. The same could well have happened with a bouncy dog (I've been knocked over by some in my time).

I would not support a ban, any more than I would ban dogs from pavements. DD and I rely on her scooter to scoot the mile and a bit to preschool - the pavements are wide, I supervise her closely, and she knows that as soon as anyone is coming in the other direction or steps out in front of her, she gets off the scooter and waits. If it wasn't for the scooter, we'd either be (yet) another car on the road, or it would take well over an hour for her to walk (and have me carry her half the way as well). Alternatively, she could use her trike - which carries the same risks as a scooter. Or she could go the whole hog and scoot on the road....

There's a big difference between making people aware of risks and banning whole categories of things because there might be a risk. If everything that is a potential hazard were banned from pavements, this would have to include:

• dogs
• buggies
• small children running
• toy pushchairs
• anyone wearing headphones
• anyone eating anything
• bins
• leaves...

...and that's just things I have to watch out for when I'm jogging!

Should have incuded joggers in that list, shouldn't I?

The vast majority of people on this thread have said more consideration, don't ban scooters and are not supporting suing

So can we stop with the baying, clamouring and hounding phrases

That poor child has broken her wrist. The poor mother must feel awful and no matter what the father has said, there is really no need for the community to round on them when they are vulnerable

Harsh as it may sound, a 3-4 year old's broken wrist is really not comparable to a broken femur in old age, when you're a carer for another elderly person affected by a stroke.

I really fear for my old age, reading some of the posts on this thread.

Elderly women fracture their hips all the time ; at home, on ice, getting out of the bath to blame the small child or the mother is horrible

Yes, people break bones all the time in accidents. I broke my shoulder quite badly in following an outdoor sport with risks.

But ...

The point is that this particular woman would NOT have a major injury if the parent had stopped the small child scooting too fast on the pavement. It didn't have to happen and wouldn't have happened if the parent had used some of the sensible things suggested on this very thread -- scooter 'reins' for example.

The OP says that she herself was startled and could easily have been hit in the first post:

A little girl aged 3 -4 scooted past me quite quickly which made me jump a bit as I hadn't heard her coming. I looked round to see her mother with a buggy quite a way back down the lane

I'm assuming the OP is much younger and able-bodied, but still found the child scooting in a potentially dangerous way.

I look after three children at the weekends (2, 4 and 11) the 11 year old and 4 year old scoot ahead of me and I have the 2 year old imprisoned strapped into a buggy with her scooter slung over the back. It is a five minute walk to the park where I let them loose.
I also have a large nappy bag, picnic and often several coats to carry.
This is in central London.

I keep firm control over the two scooting but I cannot see how else I could get everything there plus two scooters/bikes if the kids weren't allowed to ride them? It's all very well saying that they are for the park - but how do you get three kids and three scooters to a park without the use of a car?

As people have said upthread - scooters aren't the problem here, its irresponsinle parents/carers.

But UptheChimney the severity of somebody's injuries is actually utterly irrelevant to whether they have any shared responsibility for being injured.

The old MN chestnut "I fear for my old age reading some posts on this thread" is so over used - nobody is being ageist in saying that this was an accident and there is no reason for all the blaming and suing of the mother of the injured child (regardless of the comparative severity of the injuries).

Saying this was an accident and that yelling that it is the mother's fault, she should be made to pay, legal action should be taken against her, acknowledging that the older lady may also have shared responsibility for the accident is not ageist at all - it is treating the older lady in exactly the same was as any other adult, which is absolutely the appropriate and respectful way to treat her - she was not intellectually impaired nor unsteady on her feet prior to the accident, and therefore is a responsible adult and should be treated as such.

Trotting out set phrases like "I fear for my old age" "Thinking differently to me or raising any element of doubt about whether the case may not be quite so clear cut" and "Don't blame the victim" (used inappropriately when this is not a case of a victim of crime) do not make you unquestionably right!

Sorry for typos which impair the sense of the last post, was interrupted mid thought and hit post accidentally without proofreading (oh no, I did something by accident...)

Should have read:

Trotting out set phrases like

"I fear for my old age" (because somebody has questioned the assumption that anyone referred to as older is always 100% in the right simply by virtue of their age..)

and

Thinking differently to me or raising any element of doubt about whether the older person is indeed absolutely beyond being an anything other than a passive victim "says an awful lot about you and not in a good way"

and

"Don't blame the victim" (used inappropriately when this is not a case of a victim of crime)

do not make you unquestionably right!

Poor M, I hope she makes a fast recovery and that things aren't too stressful for her family.

My DCs scoot on the pavement, ahead of me and sometimes at considerable speed. I would be mortified if they caused injury to someone and try my best to keep control of them.

A child could have done the same damage whilst running along the pavement also though, could they not? Would there still be a lawsuit in that case?

Everyone who saw it happen (not just me, although I was closest) says the child was on top of M before she had chance to see her.

Everyone who saw it happen says there is no way M could have avoided the child who was scooting right up against the fence. I expect she's been told to stay away from the road.

The lawyer is a no fee one, so presumably they'll be told if it isn't worth pursuing. If there's no case to answer then no one will be suing.

I think YABU if advocating a ban on scooters, but that obviously parents should make sure they teach kids to scoot sensibly and then keep an eye on them as they go. A sensible parent would, for instance, take the scooter away for a bit if the child cannot be trusted etc

But I think it is a situation where a minority of parents should not be allowed to spoil the fun of scooting for the majority of well behaved kids. If you have kids you will know that the use of a scooter can turn an unmanagable walk into a managable one, and they encourage exercise.

Agree that adults on bikes are a much bigger problem. Being banned hasn't made any difference to them.

Also, drivers who drive straight across pavements into driveway without looking to see if anyone if coming along.

Would much rather ban - smoking on the streets (esp anywhere near a queue), loud swearing (technically illegal already it's true) on the streets and other things that adults do which affect the well-being of children.

People spend far too much time complaining about the ways children inconvenience adults, but it's much worse the other way round.

Who says the child was out of control? She had been told to wait, she waited then when her mother was 5 feet away away(so less than 1 cars length) she carried on. OP doesn't say how fast she was going. It was an accident and a different accident could and probably would have had the same consequence (as I said ice or uneven ground).

She was going a lot faster than I would have let a DC of mine go on the pavement, even a much wider one. And further ahead of the mother than I would have allowed in the circumstances. I didn't let my DCs ride bikes or scooters on the pavements around here, they had to push them to the park.

M is quite comfortable and they are hoping to transfer her to a nursing home by the weekend. She'll need the cast changing first, probably. A is going to be looked after at home by carers and neighbours for now. Until we know how well M will be.

Glad she is doing ok.