AIBU to think that state schools should be achieving this?

[KatyPutTheCuttleOn]

private schools GCSE results

Should state schools be able to achieve results closer to this?

I don't want this to be a private school bashing thread, but really, should state schools be able to achieve closer to this?

The private school I went to more than 20 years ago had helicopter parents who certainly contested any sanction given to their precious first born. There are plenty of private school parents who believe that the sun shines from their little darling's arse.

Middle class parents are prepared to stand up for their children and not tolerate any sh!t. I know state school parents whose children cannot read at the age of 11 and the only mistake they made was to trust the teachers for years.

Low income parents whose kids can't read are sometimes prepared to believe that their child has learning difficulties rather than question the quality of the teaching. A middle class parent whose child cannot read will demand a referal to the ed pych and not leave the building until their child has a statement and support for their dyslexia.

Why do people believe state schools have no discipline and indies no disruption? Where I work it is generally calm and purposeful but we have a small( approx. 5-7) group of pupils whose lives are so dysfunctional/chaotic neither they or their parents can cope with the rules that govern classrooms. We cannot expel them without getting in return a similar pupil from another school in the LEA. But if they each disrupt 2 lessons each day that results in over 180 pupils having some part of their education disrupted. In an indie they would be gone.

I feel that the sheer size of state schools and state school classes mean that some children get lost in the system. Private schools tend to be far smaller and everyone knows everyone.

Eton has 1300 pupils in 5 year groups .... larger than many state schools

fairy my school was a selective private gels school
but it was going through a meltdown - so teachers gave up on discipline.
I have my reports - they make no mention at all of the fact that the teachers had not seen me in lessons

Children do get lost in the system. We have just taken a pupil frm a large,English comp. He was bewildered at the homework requirements we have, the work ethic and the need to actually take home and read books. After 2 years there, knowing he was leaving at the end of the year, no one bothered to write a report so any information we had was out of date. He is verbally bright but can't write. Within 2 weeks we have diagnosed (formally) dyslexia, put into place support in class and for homework and we are confident he will do very well now. He knows what is expected and is delivering.

We are a state school (Scotland) but we are tiny and have small classes and we absolutely refuse to let anyone fall through the cracks. We get very, very good results on many subjects (some just don't manage it or attract less academic pupils) but we could do none of this with the admin burdens or class sizes of "normal" state schools. My colleagues 50 miles away are no less talented (probably more so) as teachers, have the same intake, and yet results are worse. The reason, they have 30 in a class. Mine are, on average 10.

Yet, I still think we could do more and have previous, extensive experience in private schools, boarding and day, who really, really work with pupils to get the best put of them. But then they are in a marketplace.....(pupil numbers dip, jobs go)

Out of curiosity I went to visit a local independent school a couple of years ago on their open day. I'd been past the school many times, but never been inside. What an eye-opener. My most recent experience of (state) schools was the one my daughters went to - youngest now 22, so it's a few years ago but not many. The independent had facilities I could never have imagined. Acres of sports fields, fantastic equipment (especially for Design Technology which seemed to me to come from the space age), recording studios for music and so on. I know it's the quality of the teaching that really counts, but even though my daughters' teachers were by and large pretty good, what more might they have been able to achieve in such conditions? And what does being surrounded by the best of everything say to the pupils about how they are valued? Something rather different to the message my daughters got from the seen-better-days offerings of their own school. Then there was the school day. Clubs from 8.00 in the morning till 8.00 in the evening, with more or less everyone expected to stay until 5.30 at least - three afternoons a week were for sport and physical activities with normal lessons re-starting at 4.00. The range of 'enrichment' activities including all the PE-type options was astounding, really something for everyone including the less sporty youngsters. Supervised homework available for those (or their parents) who wanted it. And the number of trips abroad had to be seen to be believed - geography trips to Iceland, language trips to France, Spain, Germany, Italy, China, physics trips to Switzerland (large Hadron collider anyone?), classics trips to Greece and Turkey, sports fixtures in the USA and Canada, and so the list went on. These kids were expected to travel the world. And at the open day much was made of their alumni association, and how it could be used to support pupils and ex-pupils and ease their way into the professions of their choice - very old-school-tie.

The school in question was charging £9000 a year. I don't know how that compares with fees across the sector, but going by this thread I think it's fairly middle of the road - not cheap, but not the most expensive either. Now, combine all the 'outside school' factors people have talked about already - e.g. the school can simply say no to the pupils it doesn't want, and of course that makes one hell of a difference. Then factor in everything the school has going for it that state schools simply can't provide. No wonder pupils at the school do so well. How could any state school possibly compete? And yet my daughters, without all of that, got the exam grades they needed to go to the universities they wanted. Hooray for the state school teachers who supported them, despite not having the advantages of the independent sector is all I can say.

"Eton has 1300 pupils in 5 year groups .... larger than many state schools"

I doult that Eton has classes of 30. They also divide the children into seperate houses so that staff and children do not have to remember too many names.

Ultimately state schools have a smaller budget and comprises have to be made.

Sorry, you said the size of the school was the problem, not the size of the classes.
And do teachers at private schools REALLY get away with only knowing the names of the pupils in their house?
What happens when they mix academic sets at GCSE?
And after all, state schools have only been using bands and houses and sets for years and years as well.

Next excuse (other than parental selection) ?

And remember that unemployed druggies DO get their kids to top schools if they are rich enough (Jamie Blandford ....)

Talkinpeace
I am a huge fan of state schools and my children attend state schools. My children's teachers are amazing, even the teachers work in my children's (special measures!) primary

Eton has a masssive advantage of being one of the most selective boarding schools on earth. The comp that my son will attend takes all comers.

The house system in a boarding school is nothing like the house system in a day school. In a boarding school children actually live in houses. A large boarding school like Eton is broken up into smaller units.

There are state schools which have been broken up into smaller learning communities often with sucess.

www.gulbenkian.org.uk/news/news/69-Schools-within-Schools.html

The challenge that faces state education is how to have the personal factor and stay within budget.

The challenge that faces state education is how to have the personal factor and stay within budget.
Leadership.
Sadly the twerp Gove seems to think that cutting heads loose from support and supervision by making their schools academies is the answer.
When actually clustering of ideas, resources and facilities is the only way forward - LEAs in much of the country were rather good at that.

TBH the facilities at DCs comp beat those at my old school into the ground - because of economies of scale.
And sharing specialist needs (like Latin teachers) would be good - but academies are discourage from cooperating until they are part of a chain.

Talkinpeace

When actually clustering of ideas, resources and facilities is the only way forward - LEAs in much of the country were rather good at that.

Pah! All I can say is get over to the SN board for a more rounded view of LAs.

daftdame

No thankyou.
I know about the problems of statements and SEN funding - that comes down to social services funding transfers into education departments - or lack thereof.

I'm talking about sharing peripatetic teachers, specialist teachers, training days, combined hiring of outside resources.

The things that mean schools have free resource to provide support for borderline SEN (SA and SA+) pupils while still getting the best from those without special needs.

Gove has totally trashed state education. Having LEAs meant that school places could be provided in areas that actually need them. Pooling resources meant that special needs could be catered for more efficently. Ie. every LEA has a Visual Impairment Service that state schools could access. Now schools have to pay to access top quality advice on supporting VI kids if they are an academy and the VI service in many LEAs has been strastically cut.

Schools are making stupid mistakes over employment laws. Many heads risk expensive employment tribunals as they believe they are above employment law. (My line manager was utterly shocked when the LEA told him that he HAD to give my job back after my maternity leave.)

I feel that the LEAS do good job on maintaining quality in education and keeping arrogant heads in check.

I feel that the LEAS do good job on maintaining quality in education and keeping arrogant heads in check.

Completely, totally and utterly agree with this. Well said

Talkinpeace

I know about the problems of statements and SEN funding - that comes down to social services funding transfers into education departments - or lack thereof.

I would say it is a little (gross understatement) more complex than that, but would agree it does make some sense to share some resources. Children should not have to be pushed from pillar to post to access these resources though.

Yadnbu.

Every child deserves a first class education and teachers in every sector should work towards the highest grades possible.

I feel that the LEAS do good job on maintaining quality in education and keeping arrogant heads in check.

Some LAs are obviously more 'hands off' than others...

daftdame
OK, I missed out the High Court appeals bit and the emergency hospital admissions, and the getting shit off the school for poor attendance because of it and the going nearly bankrupt fighting ones case and the school finally saying stuff it and bring in the extra staff BEFORE the funding agreement so cutting resources for the rest of the school.
Been there, shared a class of 30 with two statemented pupils .....

Reallytired
I feel that the LEAS do good job on maintaining quality in education and keeping arrogant heads in check
HEAR HEAR

Talkinpeace have you?

Didn't quite understand all of your post, its like trying to sound bite the whole issue, which doesn't quite work for me. Needless to say its different if the child in question is your own child.

daftdame
Yup, two kids in my child's class. One was occasionally violent, the other regularly in hospital. HUGELY disruptive on the rest of the (very small) school. Both ended up at specialist secondary. The LEA did what they could but were hamstrung by funds : I was a governor so saw all the numbers.
How on earth heads are supposed to cope with that sort of thing without LEA support (and now they have to pay each time they phone they will try) is a scary thought.

Talkinpeace How awful for you...the disruption! How do you think the families in question felt to..ahem..be such a burden on resources? Show some compassion please! Being a governor or another parent who has had to 'put up with this' is not the same!

By the way IMO a lot of the support required just requires a bit of compassion and does not cost extra. Some does cost extra of course but these children have a right to have an education which caters to their needs.

daftdame
I know exactly how the families felt. They were friends. We all supported them and helped them and backed them up. They were not a burden on resources. Their circumstances were. There is a world of difference.

But it is appalling that both families had to fight for years and years at huge personal costs to get what was rightfully theirs.
And that the school had to make choices that could have set them against other parents.

Which, getting back to the thread, is why state schools will never match private selective schools in their results. Because "bog standard" state schools have to deal with whatever comes through their door with resources much more limited than picky private schools.

There are also the other 28 children in the class who are entitled to an education. As a teacher children have an equal right to their attention, Which is why it is essential that SEN pupils get the extra funding they are entitled to. All children have a right to an education that will cater to their needs.

Hmm I wouldn't assume I could know exactly how the families felt even if they were friends of yours....if you have not personally had this happen to your own family. But maybe I'm splitting hairs.

It is a State school's purpose to deal with their demographic IMO so 'this kind of thing' , as you put it, is par for the course.

A lot of my child's additional support, as detailed in his Statement and IEPs would have had no extra cost, or particularly time or extra staffing - just extra thought or consideration.