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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU to think that state schools should be achieving this?

200 replies

KatyPutTheCuttleOn · 31/08/2013 07:41

private schools GCSE results

Should state schools be able to achieve results closer to this?

I don't want this to be a private school bashing thread, but really, should state schools be able to achieve closer to this?

OP posts:
Talkinpeace · 01/09/2013 16:29

Africanexport
Homework is for parents not for kids.
I regularly get flamed for saying so,
but knowing of kids who have come into DCs school from the uber selective private in year 9 (economic not academic reasons) they are gobsmacked to find that the bright kids are at the same level despite the shorter days and lack of homework.

I went to a private school that forgot to tell my parents I was bunking all my lessons.
Thus iit was a shock to them when I failed my A levels

My sister went to a private school that edged out all thick kids at the start of year 11 - even the one whose daddy had donated tens of thousands towards a new building ...

daftdame · 01/09/2013 16:31

If homework is for parents, not children, why don't schools not just say you can opt out?

Talkinpeace · 01/09/2013 16:37

daftdame
State schools do.
You cannot be penalised for not doing it.
The pupil can be requested to do the work in lunchbreak, or moved down a set but beyond that its an option : state schools have to allow for children without any sort of proper home to go back to after all.

Private schools use it as a management tool.

fairylightsinthespring · 01/09/2013 16:41

In terms of what state schools could do that independents already do (leaving out selection, smaller classes etc), on the basis of what the indie school I teach in does that differs from my previous state school it would be small things to do with discipline. eg, chewing gum: banned in both schools. At state, it was just "put it in the bin", end of story. Had to do that many times a day. At private its a saturday detention. I never see it. Haircuts and uniform: Both school have policies - at state, continual infringements would just be met with nagging from tutors, maybe eventually a phone call home. Private school, they get one warning then are in detention. If a haircut is not remedied over a weekend, they are sent up to the one in town where the school has an account. The Deputy head keeps shaving gear in his desk and boys with stubble are given it to use on site then and there. It all sounds trivial but the boys don't overstep the line in bigger ways because they know the punishments are severe. 3 boys bunked my lesson on the last day of the summer term and have a saturday on the first week back. At state, it would have just been "oh well,lets do a fresh start in Sept and they'd have got away with it". In class, I get to teach, not do crowd control and THAT is a key difference in why some of the weaker kids do end up achiving top grades. Its not for everyone - I know many on MN would be horrified at the approach my school takes, but if you want academic results, this works.

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 01/09/2013 16:46

Can you imagine the AIBUs? DS, 14, was ordered to shave at school with shaver from the HTs desk, prob used by hundreds of other boys...

DS forced to miss lessons and visit the hairdressers in town (an account? this comes out of fees, I assume?) to get his lovely curls cut off - AIBU to be really upset?

Private schools can get away with things like this if that's what the parents are paying for - you can't just impose it on the population more broadly.

Also, could you not make sweeping statements like 'At state, it would have just been "oh well,lets do a fresh start in Sept and they'd have got away with it" You might feel it would have been like that in the state school you used to teach in, but you're extrapolating quite a lot there.

(ps, can't be that great there in terms of discipline, attitude and achievement if 3 boys bunked your lesson, surely? Wink)

Talkinpeace · 01/09/2013 16:48

fairy
If a private school expels, then another school picks up the mess
If a state school expels then their budget picks up the mess

Private schools pick the kids
State schools take what they are given

Not comparable : do not pretend to try as it makes you look ill informed

daftdame · 01/09/2013 16:51

Talkinpeace Ours definitely encourages (pressurises) doing the homework. Children are confronted if they don't do the homework set, then pointed in the direction of the homework club, parents are asked why.

I don't want to make things difficult for my DC so I do everything in my powers make sure they do it. So opting out is not really an attractive option, a fair choice is not given.

If teachers really are not bothered about homework opting out should be genuine option, with no repercussions, a fair choice.

littlemisswise · 01/09/2013 16:56

My DC went to state school and came out with excellent GCSE results. DS1 went to the 6th form college attached to the school and came out with very high A level grades, DS2 starts tomorrow.

If they fell out of line at school, the students in general, there were consequences and severe ones at that. The HT was/ is very, very strict. Not all State schools, if any, are like the ones fairy has described.

It's not difficult to see why DC in Independent schools do better, on the whole, than state school children. Unfortunately that option is not open to all of us.

daftdame · 01/09/2013 16:59

fairy My DC might be a nervous wreck if that type of discipline was imposed. He sometimes tries so hard to obey a rule, through fear of punishment, he ends up breaking another one because he has missed something else by mistake (from worrying about the other rule). Sad

I can think of quite a few children for which this discipline style is completely counter-productive, myself, as a child included.

JakeBullet · 01/09/2013 17:06

Most State schools apply sanctions to children who don't do homework. It is going to be my biggest battle in Y7, DS barely copes with the reduced and very limited homework he gets now and it is a nightmare. I would be happy to ditch homework altogether in his case. Or just ask him to produce something of interest to him. He is autistic and as such homework is "school stuff", he has no desire, interest or understanding about school work being done outside of school hours.

BoneyBackJefferson · 01/09/2013 17:31

AfricanExport

"I do believe that hard work and enforcing discipline would help state schools improve."

Wow, because we at state schools are not trying that already.

FFS.

marcopront · 01/09/2013 18:23

fairylightsinthespring
In the private school what are the consequences of missing detention? would the parents back you up?
In the state school, is the detention enforceable? Would the parents back you up?

littlemog · 01/09/2013 18:29

In my experience (taught in both sectors but now in indie) detentions are unenforceable in state schools and more often than not, they are contested by parents. They were effectively pointless.

In my current school they are incredibly rare and happen on Saturday mornings where they are supervised by the Head. Parents back staff up rather than the opposite.

What fairylight said about the little disciplinary things is so true.

But OP you are not comparing like for like in any sense.

littlemog · 01/09/2013 18:32

Any school that is fee paying is going to be self selecting: it is not going to include the children of permanently unemployed drug addicts with a grudge against the education system

^^
This.

BrokenSunglasses · 01/09/2013 18:34

The biggest difference between state schools and private schools is the parents. None of the rest of it makes anywhere near as much difference as the parents do IMO.

Talkinpeace · 01/09/2013 18:37

brokensunglasses
Please elaborate.
As the parents at private schools are merely a subset of those at state schools.
Which types of parents are missing from private schools?

Would the private school methods work without that level of exclusion?

fairylightsinthespring · 01/09/2013 18:41

in general yes, the parents do support sanctions and it is very true that we do have the ultimate sanction of asking kids to leave if they and /or their parents feel that they do not support the school's way of doing things. I appreciate that this does sometimes mean that the state system picks up the mess. The OP was asking if state schools should strive for the same results and I was suggesting some small ways in which I feel my current school goes about creating an atmosphere in which successful learning can take place. Of course the bottom line is that we have selection, both in terms of exam and the sort of parents who will and can support the school ethos. (They get sent the bill for the haircuts, by the way, it just means that there is no quibbling once it reaches that stage). In my state schools (and there were several) it was much more common for parents to contest detentions and other sanctions, making some students virtually unteachable as they absolutely knew that no sanction would be carried through.

marcopront · 01/09/2013 18:42

Talkinpeace

Two are mentioned just before your question.

  1. Parents at a fee paying school are more likely to back up the school in the case of discipline issues.

  2. Any school that is fee paying is going to be self selecting: it is not going to include the children of permanently unemployed drug addicts with a grudge against the education system.

BrokenSunglasses · 01/09/2013 18:42

Would the private school methods work without that level of exclusion?

There wouldn't be a reason to exclude anyone if all parents were the same, apart from the children whose needs couldn't be met in mainstream anyway.

Talkinpeace · 01/09/2013 18:44

My school never told my parents I was bunking lessons : it just kept cashing the cheques.

it is not going to include the children of permanently unemployed drug addicts
unless they are INCREDIBLY rich - like the Rausing children .....

ReallyTired · 01/09/2013 18:47

I feel that the sheer size of state schools and state school classes mean that some children get lost in the system. Private schools tend to be far smaller and everyone knows everyone.

My son's state secondary has several assistant deputy heads and several layers of senior management. I doult the head teacher knows all his staff yet alone the kids! I feel that breaking up these huge state secondaries into smaller units would make them easier to manage and bring back the human element.

It will be interesting to see what free schools can achieve with a limited budget and more freedom.

marcopront · 01/09/2013 18:48

fairylights
Surely you have there given the difference.
In the private school, the parents support the sanctions, in the state school they contested them. The problem is not the school, it is the parents.

Lazyjaney · 01/09/2013 18:49

Grammars probably get even better results as they are all selective, whereas not all public schools are.

But if you just gave UK state schools discipline, which most other OECD countries take for granted, I think you'd see a jump in Comprehensive results too.

littlemog · 01/09/2013 18:51

ReallyTiredI completely agree with you that many state schools are far too big. All of the ones I have worked in also had a very top heavy management with lots of Assistant Heads --who did very little

fairylightsinthespring · 01/09/2013 18:56

oh also, the kids who bunked off - that was the first time 8 years anyone bunked my lesson and they did it because they hadn't prepped for a presentation, wrongly assuming we would not be doing them on the last day. We do have kids in the lower school who do get overly worried about the consequences of breaking a rule but actually, one of the other things we are able to do is use our judgement and apply some flexibility. If one boy is always late with homework, has poor excuses etc, he gets the appropriate punishment. If its a one off and the boy is genuinely sorry and upset about it, we tend to just ask for it in the next day. The smaller classes etc make that a little easier and its understood that how you behave does have an impact. You can't arse around and expect the same treatment as someone who behaves and works hard.