AIBU to think that state schools should be achieving this?

[KatyPutTheCuttleOn]

private schools GCSE results

Should state schools be able to achieve results closer to this?

I don't want this to be a private school bashing thread, but really, should state schools be able to achieve closer to this?

I'm dreaming of having Olivos fees. 3.5k pa is less than what most state schools get per pupil. Some seriously good financial management at that school.

orginialsteamingnit do you realise that not all private schools are academically selective and that lots offer additional support for children with a specific learning need such as dyslexia (albeit sometimes at an additional cost)?
Do yo also realise that there are some 'poor' children at private schools with the aid of a bursary / armed forces schemes/ other specific help such as those related to certain occupations?
With Olivos fees of 3.5k pa a lot of people who are not wealthy could afford a private school.

I believe Olivio has hit the nail on the head. I teach in a state school (83% pass rate for those that care). I have lots of teacher friends at various private and grammar schools in the county. Many of them tell me that they simply do not enter the children who may not achieve above a C grade, and this is decided fairly early on.
Obviously they have to be entered in core subjects so perhaps further interrogation of % of A*-C in the core subjects compared with state would benefit those who wish to do comparison. Also be wary about headline figures that do not include the full cohort, it's a favourite trick of a very well regarded independent school down the road from me.

Also I would add that if a child is expelled during year 10/11 from a state school then their stats still appear on the 'league table' so unfortunately 'booting them out' doesn't help us in terms of results even if it does have a positive impact on the learning of others.

Rather than asking why state schools do not do as well as private schools, prehaps we should be asking why our children do not do as well as those in Finland?

www.smithsonianmag.com/people-places/Why-Are-Finlands-Schools-Successful.html

Finland does have a minority of schools which are multicutural and similar to the roughest schools in the UK. Certainly there are plenty of Finns with SEN.

One thing that both british private schools and Finnish schools have is the freedom to make their own decisions as teaching professionals.

This is an interesting quote:

"The school where Louhivuori teaches served 240 first through ninth graders last year; and in contrast with Finland?s reputation for ethnic homogeneity, more than half of its 150 elementary-level students are immigrants?from Somalia, Iraq, Russia, Bangladesh, Estonia and Ethiopia, among other nations. ?Children from wealthy families with lots of education can be taught by stupid teachers,? Louhivuori said, smiling. ?We try to catch the weak students. It?s deep in our thinking.?

Read more: www.smithsonianmag.com/people-places/Why-Are-Finlands-Schools-Successful.html#ixzz2da6lIiEK
"

BUT
Finland does not have a record for producing excellence - it is great at bringing everybody up to a level but not at getting the bright way beyond it ....
also, SEN kids are not put in for the PISA tests on which many such stories are based
the devil is in the detail
and "churn" in Finnish schools is a fraction of that in the UK

As a Finn, I think that although the Finnish system is good, it's simply not workable in the UK. Community and society is incredibly different, as are poverty rates. Compared to my area, teaching in Finland is easier, not because of the standards, tests and practices, but a smaller population where although SEN provision is good can hide terrible, terrible cases, which aren't widely reported but are known and aren't infrequent. The multicultural schools are there, but they are a minority, certainly compared to many UK schools, and although there are excellent cases, like the ones reported, children with Finnish not as a first language don't always receive the best help to achieve their true potential. Children are brought up to high standards but people who can achieve higher are not given help and there is relatively little movement within schools.

Overall, that means the circumstances of students are incredibly different, and although I like the Finnish system and sometimes which we'd stayed for longer for the DC, I don't think it will work in the UK and it isn't great when you look at the hidden facts.

running yes I do realise not all private schools are not academically selective, but by making sure only children whose parents have chosen and invested in that school, they are still able to ensure a pretty committed intake, no?

And yes, I know some of them do let some poor children in if those children are very bright and have parents committed enough to find out about and go for bursaries.

Any school that is fee paying is going to be self selecting: it is not going to include the children of permanently unemployed drug addicts with a grudge against the education system.

And probably rather few children with severe learning disabilities.

It is interesting that on every thread where selectiveness re SN comes up, somebody pops up to say "but private schools do take children with dyslexia", as if that was the worst SN they could imagine. Yes, they do, but state schools also take children with Downs children and autistic children and children with severe behavioural problems and children with chronic mental health issues.

There is a private school near us that speicalises in children with major learning difficulties and 15% of their children got 5 GCSEs.

Some state schools do achieve results like that - usually grammar schools rather than comprehensive. comprehensives tend to have a disadvantage generally in that there are usually some there who are not so bright, are simply not interested, or have parents who do not realise the value of a good education. those are just some reasons, before you even get on to parental input, or arguments about level of resources etc etc

I am not aware of any private school that takes pupils who have been excluded from other schools on the grounds of extreme violence.

DH has worked at a secure boarding school for severely disturbed kids.
Exam results were not high on their agenda.

Many of those private schools that got 99 and 100% are not especially selective at all. I work in a totally non selective independent for younger children and we have sent children onto schools like Uppingham and Downe House with mild special needs.

I think it's the class sizes and expected work ethic, plus the fact that it really isn't very difficult for a child without learning difficulties to achieve 5 C grades at GCSE if they work hard. Imo, it would be embarrassing if selective and independent schools didn't achieve almost 100%.

Only one school stands out on that list for me - the only non selective AND non independent school - a comprehensive academy in Harrow. Either there's something I don't know about that school/area or it's the one doing by far the best job.

If state schools achieved this then there would be outcry that standards had dropped and exams were too easy. State schools can't win, poor results - failing pupils, good results - standards slipping, GCSEs not fit for purpose.

If parents pay for their child's education then they will make sure that the teachers are supported and school rules are kept. The parents will make sure that they are not wasting their money. Many parents in state schools both primary and secondary do not make their children keep to the rules, do not support teachers when their DC disrupts lessens. They complain if their DC is punished for bad behaviour and do not help with homework etc. I am not saying all parents, but it only takes 1 in each class and that affects all the class.

Look how the schools do with average pupils

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1531553/The-family-qualifications.html

It is interesting that on every thread where selectiveness re SN comes up, somebody pops up to say "but private schools do take children with dyslexia", as if that was the worst SN they could imagine. Yes, they do, but state schools also take children with Downs children and autistic children and children with severe behavioural problems and children with chronic mental health issues.

Most state schools don't take children with the most severe learning disabilities either. I know this as I happen to have a child with severe learning disabilities who would never be able to attend mainstream school as they wouldn't be able to manage him or meet his needs. My child goes to a school for children with moderate and severe learning disabilities. The children will not take any formal exams (a few might), but it is a wonderful school. So although you are right that private schools don't take children with the most severe learning disabilities, neither do mainstream state schools. Similarly there are specific schools for children with the most severe behavioural and emotional problems (EBD schools and pupil referral units), so those children are unlikely to be in mainstream state schools also.

My other child who goes to private school is in a mixed ability class, the class is not selective and atleast one of the children gets additional help for dyslexia, but it is likely that most of the children in the class will exceed the equivalent of level 5 and progess to selective senior schools by the time they complete year 6. Considering the school is not academically selective it is still remarkable that the children have reached a higher level by the time they leave. Obviously there are a lot of factors such as small class sizes and parental attitude that contribute. However, they also attend school for fewer weeks each year and per class have less funding than the local state schools. So is part of the answer for state schools to spend the money more wisely and reduce class sizes if possible? One of these state school spends its pupil premium on horse riding lessons, karate and cookery lessons for the children; would that money be better spent on teaching staff or homeowrk clubs?

Actually all the students in PRU have attended state schools, often children will spend a short period of time in a PRU then transfer back to mainstream. It is normally a battle to move children from mainstream to alternative provision if that is more appropriate. LEAs don't like having to spend more on specialist provision. Lots of schools spend PP on reducing class size, there isn't much evidence that this improves outcomes.

Have you worked in a PRU or had a child in one? Based on my experience most of these children don't transfer back to mainstream state shools, they go on to attend EBD schools. Maybe there is a different policy in different areas, but what I have witnessed is that those children who do go bam to state schools after spending time at a PRU either get excluded from the new school and return to the PRU or just fail to attend and get assigned to alternative non mainstream provision.

I'm a secondary SENCO, in my area PRU will only offer short term places for KS3, they do take KS4. Actually I have had a child successfully return to mainstream, can only think of one mind.

A kid in DDs year went to the PRU for 6 weeks and came back transformed.
Our local PRU is working wonders with the mainstream school results.

well I don't know but I am sure the fact that my year 3 DS, in prep, gets about 5 times more homework than my year 7 DD in state school might have something to do with it. 20% of DD's class in prep were SEN.

I do believe that hard work and enforcing discipline would help state schools improve.

My two experiences of private schools are a head teacher who told me he "managed out" children who would not make the grade, and a friend whose boys were in an independent junior school. The school also had a secondary level building and she told me that although her children were expected to go there that other parents had been encouraged to "look elsewhere" at that stage.

That IMHO is why there is a difference......we do t want your child in our school.

Then again try having a child with SEN in the State system. The role of the secondary SENCO with regard to prospective parents appears to be to encourage them not to apply!

Sorry wonderstuff, I know I am generalising about secondary SENCOs but my experience locally has not been good. I know there are brilliant SENCOs out there.

I think it would make more sense to ask if private schools could take a whole cross section of a comprehensive and get top results for them all.
State schools produce better results than many private schools if the are selective.