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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing

233 replies

difficultpickle · 29/08/2013 22:47

AIBU to think that is what has happened in the House of Commons this evening?

Having listened to the debate today I am truly shocked and saddened by the outcome.

OP posts:
GoshAnneGorilla · 30/08/2013 01:45

cantspel - there has never been any proof aside from that one statement from her. Not that interested in debating with you anyway, all you have is Google and all you care about are your taxes.

cantspel · 30/08/2013 01:52

No one has said that they Syrian people dont have a right to fight against a dictatorship.

The question is do we have a right to interfere in another countries civil war.

And the answer is a resounding NO.

GoshAnneGorilla · 30/08/2013 01:57

But then there is the question of stopping genocide - which is what's happening in Syria.

Or does Never Again only apply in hindsight?

cantspel · 30/08/2013 01:57

Gosh there will be no proof of who committed last weeks attacks either.

Yes i can about my taxes being used to interfere in something that is none of our business. Any help we should give should be limited to humanitarian aid only.

cantspel · 30/08/2013 01:59

Gosh i haven't seen you posting in support of strikes against north korea and they have been committing genocide against their own for longer than i care to remember.

Or is that ok as you dont have family there?

GoshAnneGorilla · 30/08/2013 02:10

cantspel - that is incredibly low to try and bait me with my own family - you have proven why I didn't want to debate with you.

However to answer your question:

There is currently no active opposition movement in North Korea, there may however be opposition movements in exile. These movement s should be consulted with and any way of funding/increasing opposition movements within NK should be investigated.

Then methods of weakening NK regime in it's current state should be investigated. So nonviolent methods of supporting opposition are what is currently needed (and is almost certainly happening).

North Korea does not even bear the slightest demographic or historical resemblence to Syria, so I would not predict what would happen once an opposition movement becomes more powerful. Many Koreans North and South would like the countries to be reunited, that would have a huge factor in what occurs.

Mimishimi · 30/08/2013 02:12

"The intent of the House is not to do nothing. It's to do the right thing."

Hahahaha!!! Someone is selling Assad, and the other side, those arms. Why would they want the conflict to stop? Same situation with Israel.

MistressDeeCee · 30/08/2013 02:16

I agree Britain should not bomb Syria. But it breaks my heart that people are suffering and dying horribly there; why would bombing be the only option? There are other ways of helping. I feel UK & USA have no right to be the 'world police' anyway. On the other hand, it looks as if other middle eastern countries are happy enough to sit back watch atrocities happen and (apparently) not to get involved, then UK and USA take all the flack as ' western intruders '. Why cant the UN get more involved? Is there any point to that organisation, at all? They appear to unite nothing, and no-one. I just feel really sorry for the Syrian people.

MistressDeeCee · 30/08/2013 04:15

I've just warched BBC (very graphic)news report on Syria. Sickening footage of innocent men women & children in hospital screaming, crying,shaking uncontrollaby, burns and swellings all over their bodies,rolling around on floor in fear and pain. Some with 50% burns, in agony waiting to die. & a tearful British doctor saying nobody cares about the victims. The world will sit & watch.

TheFallenNinja · 30/08/2013 05:35

My worry is that we have just handed the Middle East to America. We now have no say whatsoever.

daisychain01 · 30/08/2013 05:46

Bisjo, you are taking Burke's quote out of context! We are not standing there with our arms folded, we are not turning a blind eye, we are not absolving our responsibilities.

We are taking a correct, circumspect and measured approach by allowing UN to do the job that is their remit, not jumping the gun like we did with Iraq.

Too many times, we start a military action when we should not. We are still sending a powerful global message that the UK as a nation is intolerant of using chemical warfare on civilians. That intolerance does not necessarily have to be demonstrated by going in and dropping bombs or actual military action. Diplomacy is invariably (in the majority of cases) the most sustainable solution

It is your choice to feel ashamed to be British, but it is misguided shame!

AuntieStella · 30/08/2013 05:51

I think that we've just made it impossible for UNSC to reach any form of consensus.

And with no need to consider UK (eg timelines for a second Parliamentary vote) the military planning for a US-led (limited? Punitive?) action becomes simpler.

daisychain01 · 30/08/2013 05:53

Lazyjaney let's not write off the possibility of democracy in the long term for countries like Egypt. The road to democracy may be a series of faltering steps but it may still happen.

A country that has lived for centuries without it may require one or even two generations to adopt the principles of free votes but it may get there in the end. A country like Egypt is not as far away from democracy as we might think.

mignonette · 30/08/2013 05:56

All those deeply troubled by this situation need to donate every penny they can afford to humanitarian relief.

I am troubled by the argument that humanitarian relief will merely bolster the Assad government and allow it to continue w/ its brutality but i cannot in all conscience sit back and just wait for change. I just do not know what to think about this situation. I do wonder whether our government and opposition are voting w/ one eye on impending British General Election though which would be morally repugnant.

I hope that any Syrian people domiciled overseas or w/ relatives there know that there are plenty of people like me, unable to sleep properly because we are so troubled by this who want to help.

Donate here.

Lazyjaney · 30/08/2013 06:06

Lazy - have you not been watching the news about Egypt?

Very carefully - you seem unable to draw the clear lessons, and too able to swallow the feel good codswallop churned out for fluffy Westerners to believe. "Multiparty democracy" is a pipe dream.

I've also been watching the news about Syria - the evidence about their Government doing the gassing looks more like a Dodgy Dossier than a compelling case.

NessieMcFessie · 30/08/2013 06:23

I completely agree OP. It makes me so angry - I want to bash people on the head. How can we possibly do nothing?

Upthread someone said this is not our fight......that makes me so sad.

Mimishimi · 30/08/2013 06:25

The 'never again' slogan gets a bit old when it's our blood that is expected to shed over and over again in conflicts abroad which don't look likely to have any resolution. The atmosphere is becoming such that it could very well happen again due to people's frustrations with being expected to hand over their sons/husbands/fathers to the geographic and economic ambitions of those in whom we now have no trust whatsoever.

AuntieStella · 30/08/2013 06:27

" How can we possibly do nothing? "

What do you think is the right and best thing to do?

Sirzy · 30/08/2013 06:33

It's a horrible situation but I struggle to see how wading in with military action will achieve anything other than more innocent deaths - or is that acceptable if it is in the name of "peace"?

NessieMcFessie · 30/08/2013 06:41

AuntieStella - I wish I had the answer. In theory, the UN should be the vehicle for any action, but the reality is that the UN is not effective.

I don't know....I have lived in the region, been to Syria many times, and studied the area at length....and I still have no idea...but I still want to bash people on the head.

Crumbledwalnuts · 30/08/2013 06:55

Is that all I have? Whatever do you mean GOSG?

You will simply have to understand that many people have seen their troops and their own people in their own country damaged and murdered by Islamist fanatics too many times for them to now want to hand them weapons and power.

It's as simple as that. Perhaps we have finally learned our lesson. You can read that as saying many people don't care about the suffering of children if you like. It won't be true. There are Islamist militants in the rebel groupings, many of them. Many of them have travelled to join the cause - a Islamist cause, not a free Syria cause. Would it alleviate the suffering of chlldren if we gave them weapons and power? Probably not. Would the weapons and power be turned against us in the end? Yes.

CaptChaos · 30/08/2013 06:58

Until we know for sure who has done what (and let's face it, neither side comes out of this smelling of roses, do they?) who would you like to bomb? Which targets do you want to go for? Be sure now.

Lovely to know that everyone who wants military action will be banging on recruitment office doors this morning, clamouring to be allowed to go and put your ideals into action.

No?

Then you are BVU.

MrsHoarder · 30/08/2013 07:11

I would love to do "something" but beyond humanitarian support (disaster emergency committee) there is little that won't make things worse in the long run.

Its not like a neighbour because we can't call the police and have opposing factions put into jail. Its the fault of the western countries who created countries with no regard for who the residents would like to share a county with, but its not a wrong that we can right.

East Europe was easier: we had the carrot of EU membership as well as the stick of military action. What do you suggest we offer the middle

LtEveDallas · 30/08/2013 07:23

This is probaby the very best outcome for Cameron and the Conservative Party. Cameron gets to act strong, caring and supportive of President Obama and the next time video appears on the news at ten with lines of dead kids, Cameron gets to say 'well, we wanted to take action to stop Assad doing this again, but her Majesties loyal opposition failed to support us in our efforts to do so'

For me it's less about what the Government says/wants, and less about what the British public says/wants. I listen to what my military leaders have to say, listen to their views and whether they believe this is an action we can/should take.

Current military leaders cannot be quoted, but look at the likes of Lord Dannet, Parry et al; soldiers and sailors who until recently were the head of the Army and Navy. They know 'our' abilities and their opinions come from the very people that would be doing the 'fighting'. In general terms they have said "wait out" "wait and see". I think that is a prudent course.

Lazyjaney · 30/08/2013 07:24

Lovely to know that everyone who wants military action will be banging on recruitment office doors this morning, clamouring to be allowed to go and put your ideals into action

Don't be ridiculous :)

Everyone knows that the "we" in " we should do something" means "other people's sons"